2024 Irish EV Sales

Cyrus

so many new experts on the grid!

Flinty997

Not sure why it has to happen overnight either...

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078922#Comment_122078922

I drive and EVs for over a decade. On our third one now.

If I see anyone ever asking for higher taxes for anyone i wont be voting for them for sure.

There is too much of this "Lets charge another tax to people who make different choices to me. It wont effect me, so let other people pay it." Total mad environmentalist nonsense.

djan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080217#Comment_122080217

I think the allocated spending and planning on both national and EU level of its expansion, especially in rural and concentrated older urban areas is telling of its current state. A

Admittedly a slightly wild comparison but look at what the UK deals with when it's tea time and the nation gets the kettles on which are a 1/3 of the power a home charging EV will consume for hours at a time. Oh and don't forget the move to heat pumps which will add to the night-time loads.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080384#Comment_122080384

most domestic ev charging happens overnight.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080204#Comment_122080204

Taxes: I find that a bit too defeatist. They can do it gradually by stealth. It's not ridiculous - the Netherlands, Sweden, and Norway have been doing exactly that with VRT based on CO2/engine size/PM/NOx. Can be done here too, I don't agree with "Ireland is unique" argument btw. Carbon taxes are coming one way or another. If the gov is serious about their own 2030 EV goal they could apply an array of measures. They aren't applying any. Seems they aren't serious about their own EV goal, or the EU emission targets (which will mean taxpayer paying fines), or cleaning up the air in cities…

Charging: Infrastructure follows sales and demand, not the other way round. Been like that in all more advanced EV markets. Although there's money available from the EU funds so the gov should maximise their utilisation to create a buffer of chargers ahead of the expected demand. Contract that out to the CPOs since ESB have proven to be mediocre at building infra at speed (compared to other EU countries' infra roll-out pace driven mostly by private CPOs). However, Ireland has the highest % of the population living in houses which is a huge plus in EU context so it should be super easy if the gov legislated/regulated and helped with the bureacratic/legal aspect of access to chargers etc.

EV costs: I agree with the low-cost models and overall affordability issue. That needs to be addressed. Doesn't mean everything else can't. Tackle issues one by one.

djan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080454#Comment_122080454

The ridiculous comment was in response to the poster suggesting a yearly 50% hike in VRT, which I do find truly ridiculous.

Taxation by stealth is already happening just look at the increases relating to emissions/NOX and fossil fuel carbon taxes. The only issue here is that it's mostly a money making scheme and once we get to a certain threshold, the taxes will just shift to EV's based on weight and manufacturing/use emissions to maintain the state's cashflows.

The issue with infrastructure following demand is that said infrastructure can take decades to build especially given Ireland's past performance in this area and it does play a big part in people's buying decision regardless of if they live in a house or apartment.

Overall sales are down and it's easy to see why as the vast majority of people just want ease of use with little to no limitations even if running costs are a little higher (potentially offset by lower purchase cost of ICE).

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080384#Comment_122080384

I can see how more drain on the grid is going to be a problem in the future. Even in your own house.

Two EVs in our house. It was a struggle with one. We got 2 chargers. During the now reduced night period its impossible to do the heat the water, washing machine, dishwasher and charge the 2 cars and whatever else is using electricity at night enough for the next day on the night rate. So we are into daytime electricity prices which is very annoying. If we had electric heating it would be even worse. We are already well over the max draw from the grid during the reduced cheap rate hours.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080516#Comment_122080516

The VRT rate could be increased 50% Y-o-Y absolutely no problem. That should've been done long time ago. The gov are dumb not to do it, could have started doing it at slower pace long time ago. Leaving it with no action leaves them with difficult choices to make in the next 10 years.

The NOx/PM taxes are ridiculously small in Ireland compared to say NL. The VRT and motor tax are the biggest joke. Similarly sized diesel is taxed 3x as much in NL as here. Externalities (healthcare, death) from diesel are accounted for. But not here.

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080538#Comment_122080538

When you say reduced you mean the 9 hour night time or the EV 2-4h window?

djan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080401#Comment_122080401

And for good reason given the lower electricity rates at the moment at certain times. However, what happens when everybody plugs in their EV's for the night hours of lower rates and the heatpumps kick in as temperatures drop. Such a heavy constant load will not be handled by the current system as it is much more than a house would consume during the day. Further, any night time tariffs will quickly be cancelled and running costs of EV will eek closer to ICE at current fuel costs.

Thankfully Ireland has no heavy industry relative to other countries but such a drastic demand increase on the grid needs to be accounted for and is rarely mentioned when the EV goals and renewably sourced electricity is bandied about.

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080563#Comment_122080563

2 - 5 am

Would be even worse with 2-4am plans.

We are on the best one for us according to energypal.ie

I dont see the smart meter windows and rates getting any better unfortunately. If you get a lot more EVs charging in that window then the price per unit will go up too because the demand will be too high at that time.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080538#Comment_122080538

This is because your night rate is too short. We have 3 EVs and charge without issue between midnight and 9 am, as well as the house battery being charged too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080543#Comment_122080543

That would be almost as unpopular as the water charges were. I reckon anyone increasing VRT beyond a percentage point or two on the top, would be the target of a witch-hunt.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080567#Comment_122080567

If you increase the night load significantly you're still below the daily peak, and with headroom remaining. There's so much surplus, the wholesale price is negative for several hours during the night at times.

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080623#Comment_122080623

I guess it depends how much you are consuming and what plan you are on. Pinergy EV plan is the best for us by a long way. Thats with the hdf plugged into energypal. But imagine a whole town or city all plugging in at night as well as running their heat pumps. That is then going to become peak demand time instead of daytime.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080657#Comment_122080657

Looking at eirgrid info you can see the night demand from about 2330 to 0700 is significantly less than daytime.

Plenty of headroom

https://www.eirgrid.ie/grid/real-time-system-information

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080623#Comment_122080623

VRT primarily only affects those buying new, its hardly a tax on the poor or on the majority

Most people would not care, because most people buy 2nd hand in this market. The number importing from NI now is minute, and the number buying new here is also fairly small. They are also the people who can afford the upfront for a new EV instead of a new ICE.

The idea there would be uproar over VRT rates going up is nonsense.

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080674#Comment_122080674

The point he was making thought was that if you get say 80% of cars electric and they are charging at home at the low demand times, that will be high demand. EVs are a huge user of electricity. Massive. I would say our two use 75% to 80% of our daily kwhs. More at the weekends. How many kwhs per night is a whole town full of EVs going to use during the EV rate hours. Now I know all of them wont be charging every night, but it would be huge.

You woulds need solar and batteries in your house to spread that load. Although in the UK they are going to now control the time at which your car charges. All new chargers have to be controllable by the grid. For now new chargers have to have that capability and they say they will only offset the charge start time by a few minutes - for now. Wont be long til they control when and at what power they charge. And what comes from that. Premium service tiers. Thats where we are headed.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080623#Comment_122080623

That would be almost as unpopular as the water charges were. I reckon anyone increasing VRT beyond a percentage point or two on the top, would be the target of a witch-hunt.

I thought the VRT was increased for ICE back in 2021. But I've had a look and the % rate was slightly decreased for most bands. Although minimums were introduced for all bands, so the increases may be hidden.
The >170g CO2/km band was hiked by 5% with a hefty minimum on top.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080723#Comment_122080723

Look at all the second hand imports from NI and formerly from GB. VRT is not just on new cars. The rate of VRT as a percentage of overall price is much higher on used imports.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080725#Comment_122080725

We have many renewables that are curtailed at night due to low demand. We're a long long way from night time electricity demand being a problem. It's never about how many kWhs are going to be consumed. Demand is measured in kW, and there is plenty of headroom at the moment at night - without altering the grid at all you could add 1000 MegaWatt of demand. That's 142,000 more EVs charging at 7kW. And that's only to bring current night usage close to current day usage.

With grid optimization, more renewables, and storage, we could easily double that 142k EVs number. And that's assuming that all 142k additional EVs all plug in at the same time, and all can draw 7kW.

EDIT: Re-looking at the eirgrid figures There's room to add another 500 MegaWatt as well. So that's another 76k evs. Nearly 220,000 incremental EVs - added to what's on the road right now - with no additional work needed.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080791#Comment_122080791

They add a percentage on top each time but outright increases of 50% would lead to riots.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080725#Comment_122080725

What mileage are you doing that you need to charge two EVs every night?

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080988#Comment_122080988

160km each way for me. 120km round trip for herself.

My company moved office a few weeks ago. Before that I could get the train or bus to work. She was WFH until about 2 months ago and now back in the office again. It was 2 days a week, then 3, now 5.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080913#Comment_122080913

Exactly, especially given that grid energy storage is really small here. Although a lot is in the pipeline, a modern renewable-ready smart grid is years away. In fact, the current grid would desperately need as many EVs to tackle this (peak shaving and reducing demand during peak) as it's more economical than storage (or export). But the gov is unable to capitalise on this. They should be pushing EVs day and night as we speak…

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080935#Comment_122080935

Right but the longer they don't do it annually, the more shock effect it's gonna be in a few years. They missed a golden opportunity to bake in the increases on an annual basis (even 2% pa or something). It's gonna be interesting to watch how they solve it. Not many options left.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081024#Comment_122081024

In terms of usage you're an outlier on the high end. That's not representative of that 80% you referred to.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081172#Comment_122081172

Indeed.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122076531#Comment_122076531

Manufacturers have nothing to do with this, zero, nada.
It's all government policy. The alpha and omega. See Norway etc.

The only thing manufacturers could do to help is to finally implement ISO15188 (AutoCharge/ Plug And Charge) which has been in place for years, but the only one close it to is Tesla (although it's not ISO15188 solution). I've heard Kia-Hyundai working on it and Ford deploying it in the US. Nothing like that in Europe AFAIK. Charging an EV must be plug and charge, no hassle, payment, fobs, cards, apps. It must be easier than ICE. Which for Tesla already is. Why the carmakers don't care - I don't know, but I suspect it's because EVs are not their core business so they don't care.

pah

I've seen it all now, people on the boards motors forum arguing for the increase of VRT - a double tax in the ass as it is 😂

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081327#Comment_122081327

Plug and Charge already works in Europe on BMW/MINI, VAG, Mercedes and Ford vehicles. Hyundai have started it with the Ioniq 6.

I've not seen any word on Tesla supporting it or Stellantis yet.

The biggest issue I see at the moment is in CPO support, I think that's where we need regulation to force compatibility.

sk8board

environmental policies have always been expensive. They tend to be proposed in the good times and withdrawn in the bad times.

very few environmental policies make any financial sense whatsoever; but ultimately that’s not what they’re for of course