Boeing 737 Max

HTCOne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121584811#Comment_121584811

In an emergency, the aircraft commander doesn’t need permission to do anything. They can just tell the likes of me what they’re doing, and it is then my job to keep everyone else out of their way.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121584980#Comment_121584980

Yes OK but coming onto radio without being super clear is not great.

You cannot aviate in the required way (immediate drop to 10k or so) without getting your message across in a clear and concise manner.

Is it not expected that pilot would give mayday or pan pan call in such a scenario?

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121585159#Comment_121585159

No point calling mayday as nobody can help.

I'm not sure why you think he can't aviate to 10000 feet without having to giving out clear and concise messages first.

mickdw

So what's the procedure - blindly dive the aircraft to 10k without notifying this.

As far as I'm aware, mayday or pan pan is the internationally recognised emergency call out.

If pilot simply put out the mayday and stated sudden depressurisation, everyone would know the situation immediately.

As it was pilot mentioned depressurisation but without the mayday atc were left wondering whether it was somehow a lesser event.

AnRothar

Mayday and Pan Pan mean different things.

Mayday is serious.

Pan Pan is we have a problem but it's not an immediate problem.

In descending order pilots priorities will be.

Aviate

Navigate

Communicate.

The pilot should assess the situation. Decide on the appropriate course of action. Enact said course of action. Tell people what they are doing.

Yes it's helpful if they share their intention but it's lower in their priorities.

Sometimes the first indication ATC get is observing the change in action rather than being told about it.

So yes blindly diving to 10,000 ft without telling anyone could happen.

Unlikely but not beyond the bounds of possibilities.

John.G

Very lucky they were not in the cruise since it blew the cockpit door open as well.

https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/656760-alaska-airlines-737-900-max-loses-door-flight-out-pdx-17.html#post11571033

JohnC.

A Portland teacher found the door plug in his back yard.

goingnowhere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121585378#Comment_121585378

Thats expected and engineered to happen and indeed required by safety authorities to happen

phonypony

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121583809#Comment_121583809

There is no scheduled maintenance inspection required on the plug or surround until 24 Months/4,000 Cycles, so if Alaska performed any inspections in that area they were for some other reason.

Padraig Mor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121585253#Comment_121585253

From watching lots of Youtube aviation videos, there is a notable lack of adherence to international standard language among US pilots and ATC - wouldn't it just be easier if they spoke like everyone else?

Padraig Mor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121585460#Comment_121585460

Now being reported that the specific airframe in this case had had three instances of the cabin pressurisation light not illuminating over the last month, and Alaska Airlines had therefore confined it to flights without extended legs over open water.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121585281#Comment_121585281

But this accident definitely fell into one or other of the emergency categories. There is no question about that as pilot declared emergency. It's poor form whatever way you look at it not to use the required terminology.

If you are trying to tell me that a pilot will dive an airplane through 6000 ft without notifying specially within close proximity to an airport in a situation where there is no loss of control, well I respectfully say you are talking crap.

Pan-pan pan-pan Pan-pan, rapid depressurisation. Performing immediate dive to 10k ft. Job done. No need for lots of questions.

Tenzor07

Pilots had their Oxygen masks on so the radio comms sounded slightly muffled because of this..

They also didn't know the extent of the damage so any rapid dives could have stressed the airframe further and caused an even bigger catastrophe

AnRothar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121585696#Comment_121585696

Aviation English is not "English" per say.

"Native" speakers most often forget this.

Hence their communications don't always follow standard phraseology.

It's not just the Americans who are guilty this, just the most common offenders.

SharkMX

I wonder how many people would have been out the gap if that had happened after the seat belt lights went out and people were going to the toilets etc.

AnRothar

 It's poor form whatever way you look at it not to use the required terminology.

While the pilot may get demerits for not using "correct term" I think that once they give some clue it would help.

But

From HTCOne

In an emergency, the aircraft commander doesn’t need permission to do anything. They can just tell the likes of me what they’re doing, and it is then my job to keep everyone else out of their way.

Actual reference

ICAO Annex 2

Section2.4

 Authority of pilot-in-command of an aircraft

The pilot-in-command of an aircraft shall have final authority as to the disposition of the aircraft while in command

Regarding

If you are trying to tell me that a pilot will dive an airplane through 6000 ft without notifying specially within close proximity to an airport in a situation where there is no loss of control,

I believe my last line covered it.

Unlikely but not beyond the bounds of possibilities.

regarding

 well I respectfully say you are talking crap.

You could be right.🙃

Storm 10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121585819#Comment_121585819

If you were on board I am sure you would not care what the Pilot said as long as he got you on the ground ,the crew performed brilliant to get down so fast and no injuries that's what its all about not what the Pilot did or did not say.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121587063#Comment_121587063

Fair comment.

ricimaki

Two updates for this today.

First, the plug has been found, and is in very good condition:

https://twitter.com/NTSB_Newsroom/status/1744442166116831560

Secondly, and very concerning, is that United found loose bolts on "at least five aircraft". Considering they are only focusing on the plug doors, makes you wonder what else could be wrong with these aircraft...

https://theaircurrent.com/feed/dispatches/united-finds-loose-bolts-on-plug-doors-during-737-max-9-inspections/

Larbre34

Boeing must now be in a cumulative existential crisis in relation to the 737MAX.

But are they simply too big to fail? Will the American Government bail them out as the Automakers were bailed out 15 years ago?

XsApollo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121589339#Comment_121589339

There are loose bolts and missing nuts on other max aircraft in the rudder control system and now loose bolts on aircraft plug doors, of which one blew out while in flight,

and Boeing are also asking for a safety exemption for the 7 max in regards to its anti icing system so it can start shipping the aircraft to customer, bearing in mind other max aircraft in service are already flying with this issue with the anti icing.

seems insane.

ricimaki

An image of one of the loose bolts:

https://twitter.com/ByERussell/status/1744460136855294106

Visible gap between the nut head and washer. Normally, "loose" in aviation means not torqued to the correct value, but in this case, it's not torqued at all, and most likely finger tightened - or it has become more and more loose after several flights. Either way, not good...

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121589339#Comment_121589339

Just popped back to post the UAL news re: loose bolts on their plugged doors.

2 things spring to mind, 1st Boeing & Spirit Aero systems are seemingly determined to undermine every single advance in quality systems management ever🤦‍♀️

2nd, are these plugs not designed in such a way that means they can only be removed from inside the airframe? A bevelled door sitting in a chamfered frame, meaning that increase in pressure differential with exterior only tightens the frame? The design of fitting a plug and not doing it in a failsafe manner is mind boggling.

I mean aside from just how worrying 5 planes with loose bolts that escaped the enhanced scrutiny Boeing claim to have lavished on the MAX?

awec

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67919436

Not great.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121589414#Comment_121589414

A conversation I had with an industry related friend re: Boeing and the what if just yesterday, my own thinking below on what I'd expect "if" it happens.

They'll be bailed out by US and then IMHO, the missile division would be spun off as Strategic asset and the civil and military sides separated with both being at least tacitly underwritten by Govt.

I'd think that the Military side would be kept "independent" to ensure a sufficient de-risking for future military bids and to allow competive design & bids in a wide field.

Similar situation though more pressing with the Civil side, would be the simple fact that Boeing are a massive strategic and prestige brand for the US and are a tent pole of Global aviation and travel.

I'd think that separation of Civil, into private ownership with underwriting of development costs by US govt with understanding that they are paid back 1st, and then once back as "profitable" refloated on market and disaster capitalism profits again

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121589583#Comment_121589583

Well at least it's got a castle nut and split pin which should guarantee against loss of the bolt...... well this one does.

kyote00

Thinks it’s the two bolts on the extreme right are the ones in question….

Sexual Chocolate

Alaska have now found some of their frames with loose bolts also.

https://news.alaskaair.com/alaska-airlines/operations/as-1282/

joujoujou

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121589583#Comment_121589583

And if you zoom the photo in, you'd notice at least one of the bolts on the other side of the bracket is not tightened either.

Scary.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121590071#Comment_121590071

I didn't even look there as I thought the castle nut had a gap between itself and washer but Jesus the other one is crazy loose.