Have we lost our Patriotism?

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501341#Comment_121501341

Who can become Irish overnight? Is it not a big citizenship test etc. I have had to fill in forms and vouch for people before, was definitely a drawn out process. Are you against people being allowed get citizenship?

And sure me and you (I assume) are Irish no matter what, no one can negate that. If some lad or lady comes over here and says they are Irish it doesn't make you any less so

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501525#Comment_121501525

You are right nobody can become a citizen overnight.

Process laid out here.

https://www.irishimmigration.ie/how-to-become-a-citizen/become-an-irish-citizen-by-naturalisation/

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501341#Comment_121501341

People can become Irish overnight in the same way they can become Doctors, Engineers, Electricians, Nurses, overnight.

As in, they can't.

All of these processes take years to complete. Just because you start the process overnight, it doesn't mean you've completed it. I would have though that this was indeed not a difficult concept.....

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501341#Comment_121501341

Not so difficult and yet you managed to confuse it with racism and jingoism in a couple of sentences.

Potatoeman

Patriotism is pride in your country it’s people, it’s past and doing the very best for it’s future.

For some reason patriotism and nationalism are seen as dirty words in the west, you’ve seen posters equating it with racism yet the same posters will cheer Ukrainian nationalism and nationalism in any non western country. Funnily enough it shows the posters true racism as they apply different standards to different races which is extremely racist.

toucheswood

A few people here straining themselves to prove my point.

So being irish is now simply a process, a few forms, tick a couple of boxes, hang around until you're given a piece of paper that states you're now irish.

I particularly liked the comparison with earning a degree.

Commodification of identity and culture, negating that identity and culture in the process, is inherently tied to the economic strategy of the government, including everything from artificially inflating housing asset prices with that imported demand, to satisfying mnc tax dodgers and their imported work forces.

Again, it's a very easily connected phenomenon in very few places on earth.

But carry on believing this is somehow normal and natural when it's nothing but greed.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121505614#Comment_121505614

Do you not have any Irish friends in Australia who got citizenship? Or in Canada or in the USA? This happens all over the world. Do you think Australia or Canada or USA are wrong to give Irish people over there this? They are over living there contributing their communities, having children, community's and contributing to the country they are in. Why shouldn't they have the similar rights as people born there?

toucheswood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121507714#Comment_121507714

It's a new world of mass migration.

The old days are long gone of sentimental guff. More is the pity.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121505559#Comment_121505559

Pride in your country doesn't mean sh*tting on people from other countries though, or seeing them as lower than you. I have pride in my country and in my family, my families history (for the most part), and many of my friends. I don't think they are inherently better than anyone else though.

If I met someone from let's say the UK who thought I was a dumb paddy (they do exist) I wouldnt be too happy about it and wouldn't say ah it's ok he is only being patriotic to England, would you?

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121507737#Comment_121507737

Not really getting you re sentamentalism...

I have loads of friends and neighbors in this situation right now in other countries. As do most people in Ireland I would reckon.

toucheswood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121507763#Comment_121507763

I mean that romantic idealism of past irish emigrants is no longer there.

Mass migration, which is the hottest topic outside of war in Europe, has put an end to ideals. There's nothing dreamy about arriving from one housing crisis to some other place suffering the exact same problem.

Identity and culture, having been commodified to facilitate said migration, simply become less meaningful. "Irish", according to some, means sweet nothing, it is anyone with the right papers on a certain day. Goes for anyone else too.

It's fairly ridiculous. But par for the course these days, ignorance paraded as progressiveness.

saabsaab

I remember a time when they played the national anthem everyone stood up and became silent or sang. They don't seem to do this anymore just continue talking and sitting..

Miniegg

I'm not on about emigrants a hundred years ago, I mean right now. There are currently 1.5 million Irish born individuals living abroad, mainly in UK, Oz, Canada and the USA.

Re making people "Irish" as you are lamenting, if Johnny from Syria comes here, contributes to society and passes the citizenship test, he won't suddenly be a Ryan from Tipperary. You can't automatically ask him who his favourite hurler is and get a good conversation. He likely won't pretend to be native Irish. He doesn't cut all links from his own history and people.

What he gains is the rights to live here as a citizen as recognition of his contributions, just as loads of our Irish brothers and sisters are doing abroad. It doesn't make you or me any less Irish.

Packrat

Interesting that both posters who are arguing here are newregs.

It makes me not want to interact with both of you because I've probably read thousands of both your posts here under your former usernames.

Miniegg, I agreed with most of a very good post you made the other day, but since then you've only argued the pro-mass migration side. I was particularly disappointed to see you use the old "sure the Irish went everywhere argument" - as if you don't see any difference in what's going on here. That tells me you're not arguing in good faith.

toucheswood, I agree with most of what you post, but now I'm wondering why you're not using your undoubtedly former username.

This constant re-reging helps nobody.

We're on boards a relatively small community (once again) and surely a bit of integrity would lend weight to your arguments.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121507866#Comment_121507866

I'm on here years but don't post too much, no idea what you mean by newreg??

My position hasn't changed at all and nothing I'm saying is in bad faith. We should take in people fleeing war who want to come here if we are able to. I'm sickened by Irish people abusing these poor people.

We should have better controls for others and only take in people we need if they aren't genuine refugees. If they are criminals or dangerous etc I'd hope we can get systems in place to catch them and send them home.

But I have no problem with people coming here looking for a better life, I'd do the same, and don't fear them because they are foreign.

People saying it is being patriotic to **** on foreigners have no idea of our history.

Miniegg

And it's a bit cheap to say me or the tocuheswood guy not posting with integrity because we don't have 5000 posts. Do I not pass your boards citizenship test no :P

Why don't you try addressing some of my points and dealing honestly with what I said in good faith.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121478983#Comment_121478983

Absolutely agree.

Here's James conolly talking about patriotism:

"Ireland, as distinct from her people, is nothing to me; and the man who is bubbling over with love and enthusiasm for "Ireland," and can yet pass unmoved through our streets and witness all the wrong and the suffering, shame and degradation wrought upon the people of Ireland-yea, wrought by Irishmen upon Irish men and women, without burning to end it, is, in my opinion, a fraud and a liar in his heart, no matter how he loves that combination of chemical elements he is pleased to call Ireland."

This is the kind of patriotism I aspire to. Its not about flags and pledging allegiance like the Americans do every day in school. It's about giving a sh1t about your fellow Irish people, even the ones you might not particularly like.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513498#Comment_121513498

Now there's a quote to replace Mr. Asquith if ever there was one!

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513510#Comment_121513510

It really sets out what patriotism is. It's not about hugging the flag, it's about the people.

You see politicians in the US and UK hugging flags or wearing flag lapel pins, while making policy that will help the rich at the expense of the poor. That's the opposite of patriotism and all the flags won't make them patriots.

Patriotism isn't about pretending the country US brilliant and perfect. It's about always trying to improve it.

Miniegg

Can't remember who said the quote that often "patriots", in the USA/UK sense, make the worst citizens.

They will use some fantasy of what their country is supposed to be (but never actually was) as justification for doing what they do, but commonly do nothing to help their community or those in need who actually do exist.

All the working class people who are being whipped up by far right elements will be dropped like hot **** as soon as convenient. It's funny the far right never cared about the working class before, but now are calling them to be "patriots", and to defend a version of Ireland that never existed.

One thing I will say in working class opponents to immigrations defence, they do have to bear the brunt of it. Most of the accomodation, particularly around Dublin, is in poorer areas. Not many of them in dun laoghaire / rathdown.

Also, if I was an unskilled worker, these people coming in are competing with me for jobs far more than with middle classes.

This is an economic argument and is far more valid than the "get all the foreigners out" and fearmongering lies we are subjected to, yet it is that is the stuff that sucks in the mob.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121507866#Comment_121507866

@Packrat - any admission you were not correct to label me a newreg and question the integrity of my posts? Just given that integrity is important to you

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121507824#Comment_121507824

I am so confident and more importantly comfortable in my massive pride in my country that I don't feel the need to virtue signal every time the anthem comes on.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513963#Comment_121513963

I heard an Argentinian economist on a podcast who said (in relation to the Argentinian middle class) they're the greatest patriots when it comes to dressing up in the Argentinian colours and loudly supporting their national teams. He said that unfortunately that patriotism does not extend to paying their taxes.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121505559#Comment_121505559

For some reason patriotism and nationalism are seen as dirty words in the west.

I can only speak definitively for myself on this but I can explain why I generally have a view of people who are uber-nationalistic.

For the most part, not exclusively, but for the most part, it seems to me that people who do the most 'talking' about their own culture, looking after their own and so on, do the least in this respect. When such people hear about payments to immigrants, they complain and say 'we should be looking after our own first', but when there's a thread on here about social welfare payments, the same people are often complaining saying people (even Irish ones) shouldn't be getting as much as they are getting from the state. I've said it before about Irish people complaining about Irish being taught in schools. I've seen a couple of these nationalists expressing this view which is baffling.

Or maybe I can explain it a different way. The people who I see actually doing things to help other Irish people or to practice and promote the culture whether it is in music, sport, art, language, rarely talk about reducing the amount of people who can come to Ireland. It seems to me that one group wants Ireland to remain, as it is (in their view), solely through the art of preventing others arriving and diluting what is in the country. The other group wants to put their effort in to practicing various aspects of what is seen to be Irish so that it remains relevant, grows, and experienced by more and more people.

If the former group has its way, they will sit back, having kept others out while other people will do what needs to be done to make Ireland what it is. If the latter group dominates, more and more people will engage in activities that help the people of Ireland and showcase its best practices while also bringing some of their cultural background to add to and inspire what is in Ireland. And in doing so they will take parts of what is Ireland in to their native groups.

Also, to not understand why people were impressed with Ukraine's show of nationalism throughout the last 18 months is just being willfully ignorant in my view. There's a hell of a difference between flying a flag in the face of foreigners telling them it will never be theirs, and flying it in honour of those giving their life to defend against an invasion.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515018#Comment_121515018

Just to address your last paragraph there. Irish-adopted Ukrainian nationalism of 2021 had a lot of the bad characteristics that we usually associate with nationalism imo.

People (like me) who merely tried to explain that the Russian military was/is not a 'paper tiger' that was going to immediately collapse and be rolled back were shouted down and called Russian agents and traitors (on this site).

Giant blue and yellow flags draped all over Dublin pre-empted independent and individual personal responses to the international situation, I thought.

People who had become very spoilt by having just spent two years supporting an Emergency diktat system and accusing other people of being vectors of disease for any reason or none were in no mood to listen to measured views that didn't totally align with their preconceptions. Because Ukraine is an underdog, Irish liberals felt totally justified in responding with a loud blast of nationalistic emotion.

And remember these are strong and enjoyable emotions that Irish liberals normally do allow themselves to feel - it must have been liberating to take this (officially-approved) black and white view. I believe there is a strong element of this to Irish-adopted Palestinian nationalism also.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515119#Comment_121515119

It doesn't. Ukraine is literally fighting for its existence and I very much remember former posters who went out of their way to spread Kremlin propaganda here. It was absolutely a thing and none of that is directed at you.

Ethnic nationalism may arouse, to employ your words, "strong and enjoyable emotions" but those are extremely dangerous as we saw when the so-called patriots went on their violent rampage in Dublin recently.

As Tell Me How has said, those who crow most often about country and patriotism are those who do either the least or they actually try and enact the worst for their own people. Covid conspiracy theories are a perfect example. Your post is just a strawman. If you want to ask questions, do so but know that the difference between asking questions and pushing an insidious agenda is completely obvious.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515205#Comment_121515205

No my post isn't a strawman.

I'm making a point of my own that one-step-removed nationalism - what George Orwell called "transferable nationalism" - can bring out the bad sides in people who don't think of themselves as nationalistic, even when they are. They oftentimes are engaged in subtle self-deception. They have selected a country or a cause (Black nationalism in America*) that they think is unimpeachable and so forget themselves in the melee of full-throated support.

The paranoid style of accusing every second poster of being a "Putinbot" just for having a different opinion on one or another aspect of the Ukraine situation was well out of order.

*What gets called a "good cause" but BLM also engaged in rioting and arson, so not peaceable.

Morgans

Patriotism was far better when racists/bigots didn't use it to peddle their hatred of others.

If patriotism means what those racists/bigots believe it to mean, I'm happy to go without.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515311#Comment_121515311

That's exactly what it is. You even finish with the usual, tedious whataboutery.

All you're doing is playing the victim. I'm not wasting any more time on this.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515344#Comment_121515344

It seems perfectly legitimate to me to discuss Irish adoption of left-wing-approved (and disguised) forms of nationalism, and how that manifests itself.