Have we lost our Patriotism?

Miniegg

Countries like the UK and US have their brand of patriotism because much of their foreign policy throughout history involved war or invasions.

It is much easier to justify these things when your people believe they are inherently the best people from the best country in the world and worth more than you. Look at the patriotism being thought in Israeli schools at the minute, or in Russia.

This type of patriotism is a construct or tool to keep the populace in line when power brokers start wars for whatever their reasons are, and need people willing to be soldiers and supporters.

With our history, I am proud of our resilience in being ourselves in the face of great oppression, and how we can go against the grain in support of the underdog or oppressed. That is Irish patriotism.

We should never believe we are the best people in the world (such a people don't exist), but work hard to follow those ideals.

Anti immigrant rhetoric, especially toward those fleeing war, isn't patriotic to our history. This dehumanisation is what happened to our sons and daughters when they had to flee our shores - called apes or monkeys, sub human, agents of the pope etc, and it justified alot of violence and killings against us from US and UK "patriots".

We are currently in the best place we have been in our countries history (not saying there aren't problems, there are many). But our people don't have to leave to live anymore, we aren't being subjugated by Britain or controlled by priests. We have achieved enormous success in such a short time (100 years since independence).

If the price of this success is accepting foreign people fleeing war, it is far better than the alternative we endured, and I believe is patriotic to our history.

Packrat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496811#Comment_121496811

100% agree with every bit of what you wrote. Same as any decent Irish person.

"Fleeing war" however: About 30,000 of the Ukrainians aren't fleeing war because they were already safe long before they even heard of treasure island.

Also - the Moldovans, Albanians, and various other nationalities destroying their passports are neither fleeing any war.

We should be proud of what we are and how we welcome genuine refugees, but all that is ruined if we allow ourselves to become a soft touch honeypot for the millions who just seek to misappropriate what we and previous generations worked our holes off and many died to attain.

Any patriot recognises the sacrifices that achieved the state of the country they are patriotic to.

Miniegg

Where is your figure of 30,000 Ukrainians not fleeing war and coming here under false pretenses coming from? Ireland was always here, and has been doing well economically for about 30 years give or take. Ukrainians have always been there. I don't remember them ever coming in such large numbers before their country was invaded, are you saying this is a coincidence?

Many of these people are traumatized and have witnessed awful things happen to their family, friends and neighbors. Most are proud of their country and were happy there, and I believe will return there to rebuild after the war is over.

Will there be some economic migrants from other countries wanting a better life here? Yes.

That is the price of the success that our older generations worked so hard to give us. You can't have it both ways, this is a common occurrence in successful countries. Either you are shite economically and lose your young people to emigration, or you are successful, keep your young here, and people want to come here. I'm not saying let anyone in (there should be better structures in place, but this will take time).

Most people who came here in our history integrated and added to our culture. Just as the Irish added to other cultures. I don't see why these people and their offspring, should they choose to stay, would be any different.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496128#Comment_121496128

Yeah, I'm happy I'd have more in common with an Irish person 100 years ago than a Muslim today - even a non-radicalised one. I mean, I've met Irish people from 100 years ago - they'd be among my relatives - and I've factually had more in common with them than non-radicalised Muslims I've met.

I think it is worth clarifying that the consideration should be a connection or otherwise with 'non-relatives' for obvious reasons. Of course we'd have a connection with our relatives purely because they are our relatives.

But, the Ireland of 100 years ago was very conservative, very religious, very misogynistic. All traits that the modern day radical muslim are said to possess. If you feel an affinity with the prevailing mindset that probably existed 100 yrs ago, then you're more likely to find it in modern day Islamists than modern day Irish people.

On the topic of sustainability, (worthy of a forum of its own not to mind its own thread) very little about the sort of capitalism driven for an by the likes of multinationals opening more and more plants is sustainable in the long term. There cannot be growth year on year eternally. That is a fact that will have to be realised more so because of available natural resources and the consequences that arise from continued industrial growth rather than the location, colour or accents of a small percentage of people in the system.

Packrat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497472#Comment_121497472

Our own government figures say so. That's why they reduced the pull factor this week, - about a year andva half late..

duck.duck.go

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497199#Comment_121497199

There is 30,000 Russians here, can we send them home first?

Miniegg

Do you mind showing me where the government said this re 30,000 Ukranians? I haven't seen that.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497472#Comment_121497472

The problem is the fact that we are pretty much letting every asylum seeker in rather than just a high majority. I'm in favour of granting asylum to everybody fleeing war, whether that's Ukraine or anywhere else. The fact is its not that difficult to have some limits in place for asylum seekers who are not fleeing war, if other countries can have limits then we can too.

duck.duck.go

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498099#Comment_121498099

Exactly the Russians still refuse to claim they started a war, so no harm in sending their asses back and freeing up 10,000 units of housing

BlackEdelweiss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121478735#Comment_121478735

I was just going to say something along these lines.

I was a staunch believer in the Irish right to freedom and independence and a 32 county republic for most of my life. I think the war in Ukraine has changed the way I think about it now. It is just dirt, actual mud, stones, rocks with artificial lines drawn on maps and concrete border posts constructed. These lines have changed hundreds of times over the centuries, maybe not in Ireland as we are an island. But look at a map of Europe from the 1300 hundreds and compare it to a map every 100 years since then. Nationalism and patriotism are bullshit in my opinion.

Dont get me wrong, I would have died for my country and I would die now for my family. But to die for mud and dirt, to leave my family to defend an ideal, someone elses ideal that I happened to inherit and ran along with as it sounded good.

As cluedo said, we are all just here, on the earth. The same dirt under our feet. We need to stop clinging onto the lines some old fuckers drew on maps hundreds of years ago. Nothing but chance put us where we are now, the games of billionaires have decided how comfortable we are in our short time here.

What does it mean to be Irish? I have an Irish accent and I like Tayto crisps. That's enough for me. I suggest you lower your sense of entitlement to what you believe to be Irish. **** off to the US or UK if its not enough for you.

Packrat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498069#Comment_121498069

It's been posted and verified further up in this or the other thread. I can't remember which and I've more to do than that today.

You made a good post which I thanked and generally agree with. I disagree that all the Ukrainians should be just accepted without seeing where in Ukraine they left or indeed which other European country they were being accommodated in before they heard about how good they'd have it here.

Let's leave it at that.

Butson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498176#Comment_121498176

you are right with regard to borders and you don't have to go back as far as 1300s to see it. Look at Europe before World War 1, 100 years ago.

Look at us here. Every summer we get behind our counties in the GAA championship. What are Irish counties? Administrative areas some of which were first designed by King John 800 years ago and added to across the centuries. Does it matter today where they came from? No.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498242#Comment_121498242

Not trying to argue or say you are wrong, genuinely curious. Nothing wrong with wanting stricter controls. Just if out of every 10, 8 people were fleeing war and 2 were economic migrants, I'd rather let the them all in and deal with the 2 later, until better controls can be set up. Not ideal but nothing is in the real world.

You aren't parroting this, but the idea that is being bandied about that Irish patriotism means closing doors to those suffering in the guise of looking after our own is absolute horseshit and flies in the face of our history and people.

We have so many people abroad and would hate to see similar happen to them.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498176#Comment_121498176

Well said. These days I think fervent patriotism is mainly an affliction for young people. I find it so divisive. Same for religion.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498103#Comment_121498103

we would be better off sending a number of "Irish" over to another country

BlackEdelweiss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498736#Comment_121498736

Yeah. I was dissapointed not to see a mass riot and Conor McGregor and his friends calling for war when one dublin scumbag stabbed another dublin scumbag last week at a party.

The reason for the US and UKs patriotism is due to their armed forces.

Their family trees trace back to service in the military.

They would nearly all have family members who served / serve in the armed forces.

Personally I don't have a patriotic feeling towards Ireland and probably feel more European then Irish.

That maybe due to have been living abroad on mainland Europe for a decade but was not patriotic before and after returning to Ireland.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498883#Comment_121498883

Patriotism in the UK is much more likely to be influenced by the monarchy, colonialism, football allegiance than it is military in my view.

lumphammer2

This would tell you the answer is a resounding NO .....

The Wolfe Tones: A sensation once again, but why? · TheJournal.ie

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121479442#Comment_121479442

Well the guys on twitter screaming patriotism are mostly long term unemployed in a full employment economy

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499611#Comment_121499611

the "Ireland is full" crowd

Salt of the earth unemployed wasters

eightieschewbaccy

To use an example of how culture is thriving. I collect vinyl and picked up the latest Lankum album. Equally have friends abroad that listen to them. On top of that, was listening to BBC Radio 6 this morning and they literally had an Irish language song playing. A decade or two ago and none of the above would be mainstream among younger age groups.

So culture and patriotism in positive ways is very much so thriving, just not in some braindead way around around bloodlines or some such ****.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KSnF7RaeoXE&pp=ygUVa25lZWNhcCBncmlhbiBjaGF0dGVu

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496811#Comment_121496811

We are a soft mark country where it is easy to play the system, and the Government, opposition parties and it seems yourself think everything is fine and dandy.

old_aussie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500871#Comment_121500871

Exactly right, and if the people the Irish elect to govern keep going the way they are, Ireland will be islamic in less than 10 years and any sign of Irish culture will be long gone.

It's sad to see another democracy in decline.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500907#Comment_121500907

what aspects of irish culture do you think we'll lose? are you telling me we'll be an islamic state by 2030 or so?

toucheswood

Previous governments bet the house on foreign corporations and tax avoidance, thereby fully embracing globalisation.

As the offshoot of globalisation, local characteristics that may be faux pas have to be watered down to the most neutral and inoffensive form in order to attract foreign interest.

"Everyone's equal" sounds great from the outside, but it's really "everyone is a profit unit" from a corporatist standpoint, and the more they can squeeze in the better, the less challenge they face the better, the weaker the sense of identity the easier. All social cohesion and character must be stripped and weakened to leverage profit.

Spend any amount of time considering the many timely coincidences of the arrival of these tax dodgers and the dramatic change in unacceptable viewpoints, née less irish and more "global", and it's no surprise really, is it?

Greed.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500871#Comment_121500871

What are you talking about, what is fine and dandy?

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501065#Comment_121501065

What viewpoints did we have to change and what are these faux pas that multinationals have brought?

toucheswood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501252#Comment_121501252

The question of the thread title itself.

To pick just one example, the coincidence of a very real attempt to negate irish identity by declaring, essentially, that anyone can become irish overnight, while at the same time there just so happens to be mass migration.

You only see such instances of deliberate denationalisation in a handful of countries worldwide that are beholden to giant multinational corporate interests.

This isn't some difficult concept.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501341#Comment_121501341

are you talking about people being granted citizenship? doesn't that take 5 years and having to jump through hoops? hardly overnight is it? people have been granted irish citizenship for a long time, it used to be a lot easier in fact.

what local characteristics are now faux pas because of immigration?