Have we lost our Patriotism?

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121491924#Comment_121491924

But the world has always changed. My grandmother didn't speak English till she was 16, only Irish. The country would go mental if we qualified for a world cup again. Not into GAA but i believe its more popular than ever. Accents change, the world is more globalised now. Embrace it, because it's never going back.

cdeb

There's plenty of problems with that post, one of which is that it completely ignores the question of sustainability. What we're doing now is absolutely planet-destroyingly unsustainable. On a cultural and societal level, it'll destroy not just Irish culture and identity, but for the cultures that we're leeching from, and in a way that's uncomfortably similar to how the colonial powers also leeched from poorer countries. Then we took their resources to make us rich; now we take their people. Same difference.

I can't remember now who said it, but there's a quote "I'm all for progress, but I'll still defend what I love". And European multiculturalism and diversity - what the head of NASA in 1969 described as "That great breadth of diversity that is Europe's gift to the world" - is worth defending. Not giving up as blandly and ignorantly as you suggest.

Those factors alone indicate that posters like you need to do better when considering these matters.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492163#Comment_121492163

This is the thing that a lot of 'save our Irish culture!' people just don't seem to get.

They conflate the country they grew up in and the experience they had in a certain time of Ireland's existence and 'Irish Culture'.

You can be sure people a hundred years before that and a hundred years again before that had very different notions about Irish life and culture.

What you are experiencing now in Ireland is in fact 'Irish Culture' - It's Irish culture of the 21st Century.

'Irish Culture' of the mid to late 21st Century will be very different again and you'll probably have 'patriots' of that era calling for a return to 'Irish Culture' of the early 21st Century, and how that's being eroded.

The world changes for everyone. Trying to keep the country around you in some kind of static cultural limbo is nonsense.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494812#Comment_121494812

Again, what is Irish culture and identity? I've no interest in the GAA or Irish dancing, is that what you mean?

You seem to be trying to say you want to end immigrants coming to do low paid jobs, not sure how you'd go about that if we keep growing and opening multinationals, as low paid jobs are created by these openings and Irish people don't want to do many of these jobs any more as they have better opportunities.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494898#Comment_121494898

You'll also never see them lift a finger or spend a penny to support "Irish culture".

I remember a former rightist on this site was once going on and on about the demise of English culture. I asked him by what metric was it disappearing. His response was the closure of an eel stall in Aldgate.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494898#Comment_121494898

The Guardian did a good long read on idealising the past recently which fits into what you're saying

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/nov/15/who-remembers-proper-binmen-facebook-nostalgia-memes-help-explain-britain-today

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494898#Comment_121494898

It's not Irish, for it has no uniquely Irish traits, it's internationalist in nature. Most Western nations are losing any individualism they had, and are all becoming much the same, which is something that is cheered on for some reason.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494997#Comment_121494997

the world has become globalised because of the internet and the ease of travel, it means people aren't as culturally different any more. i take this as a positive though. you can hark back to a time where people were more segregated by cultures but that's long gone now and wont be coming back.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494997#Comment_121494997

I find it incredible how blind people can be to their own national traits. It's the age old thing where folks say 'Sure I don't have an accent' in a thick Irish accent.

Ireland is Irish even down to the way people speak to each other. The colloquialisms we all use. In fact, we turn a lot of things Irish with immigration - I was speaking to a Polish lady in work yesterday with the thickest Dublin lilt to her Polish accent you could imagine. Of course, she couldn't hear it at all.

There are so many things that are culturally Irish that you think, say and do on a daily basis that don't even occur to you.

cdeb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494945#Comment_121494945

It would clearly be a good thing to end immigrants coming to do low-paid jobs. You say you want us to keep growing - yet you ignore the challenge I put to you about sustanability. Keeping growing is not possible. You don't seem to get that. In fact, you seem resolutely intent on ignoring it.

The reason these jobs are low paid is because we can exploit poor people into doing them. We would have a much more equal society if multi-nationals had pressure at the bottom of the wage pile. Sure, some things might cost a bit more - but is that a real problem? And the sort of immigration we're seeing creates inherent issues with sustainability - huge increases in flying, more housing, huge carbon emissions, less chances for re-wilding.

Irish culture and identity is fairly clear I think. You seem aware of the concept of multi-culturalism. What separates any of those cultures? What makes Indian culture Indian, or English culture English. This isn't about you - you seem to think one person defines a culture. It's a much broader item than that though. Just because you don't opt into all aspects of Irish culture doesn't mean it's not Irish culture.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495346#Comment_121495346

keeping growing is not sustainable but it is what all politicians and nearly all voters want, more money more jobs better opportunities. so that wont be changing any time soon, no one is going to vote for degrowth.

irish culture is very clear, what is it then? you seem to be avoiding the question.

cdeb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494898#Comment_121494898

On the contrary - while culture can absolutely evolve, I think the differences you refer over time to are less than you think. Certainly less than the impact we're seeing now, where culture is getting over-ridden, not evolving. I'd have far more in common with an Irish person of 100 years ago than a Muslim now. Because culture is what gets passed down from generation to generation, so a lot of it will have survived, but will of course completely bypass someone from outside the country.

Some will arrive and adopt it of course. Others won't. Some will have no intention of integrating into our culture at all; that's not really good enough.

cdeb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495361#Comment_121495361

Keeping growing seems to be what you want though. Is that the case? Because I would have thought in context of this discussion, you could put aside your privilege and acknowledge that point, and how the issues you raise are in direct contraction to it. You are, after all, part of the problem here; that should at least come across in your comments.

I'm not avoiding any question. Irish culture is habits and traits and ideologies and customs so on that get passed down from generation to generation. it is an intangible and a very broad idea, so you can't really put a box on it and say "This definitively is the whole of what Irish culture is". But anyone discussing it can identify it, and realise the differences between, say, Muslim culture or Indian culture or American culture.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495388#Comment_121495388

Nope, I'd be all for some kind of degrowth system and living within our ecological boundaries, but as i said, no one is going to vote for that, they'd call it communist. i'm not sure why you're going on about this anyway in a thread about patriotism.

arctictree

Here's patriotism for you:

https://www.rte.ie/sport/hurling/2023/1214/1421977-jp-mcmanus-to-donate-1m-to-every-gaa-county-board/

Fair play to him, at least he is deciding where his money is going.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495417#Comment_121495417

i wish he put it into the league of ireland instead 😬

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495363#Comment_121495363

So you'd have more in common with an Irish man living out in the west 100 years ago, with no electricity, doesn't speak English, tilling the fields for a living than a moderate Muslim living today, working for a big tech multinational like Google, with a smart phone like you, living in an apartment in the city centre?

Oh wait, you mean those burka wearing Muslims who don't speak English and want us all to live under Sharia Law. Sorry I forgot they were all like that.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495440#Comment_121495440

i was thinking the same, my muslim colleagues i worked with in london and went to football matches with, would i really have more in common with peig sayers lol?

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495456#Comment_121495456

It a great example of this myth of affinity people have with their cultural ancestors over people actually living and breathing on the earth today.

In reality if you could time travel and put an average Irish man of today in a room with an average Irish man of 100 years ago they'd have nothing in common at all. Might have a bit of a rant about the British, the price of a pint and the weather but that's probably about it.

notJoeJoe

If we had a four day work week, it would give people more time to spend on their hobbies and time to spend with friends and family. This would help to develop culture further. It would give people time to integrate into other cultures, or adapt and share different cultures. I think the ability for working people to create culture is stifled by money, business, and the constant need for growth. This is why most people only have the time to do meaningless activities like social media and consuming online content.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495422#Comment_121495422

Ah now, ya don't want him to waste his money.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495494#Comment_121495494

This would be great for everyone. It also perfectly demonstrates how regressive modern nationalism and "patriotism" are. All they seem to want is to strip rights away.

If people wanted to help Irish people and Irish families, a 4-day week would be a damn good start.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495363#Comment_121495363

The extremist Muslim you have in mind as you write this would probably be closer to the Irish person of 100 years ago, than the average Irish person today is. The vast majority of muslims though don't conform with the stereotype that is often associated with the narrative that they are taking over. As others have pointed out, most muslims in Ireland are similar in many outwardly behaviours to most of people of similar age and background.

It always seems to me that people who complain most about Ireland losing its culture do least to maintain it and in fact hasten the end of the culture themselves with their own life choices. You never seem to see a fluent Irish speaker complaining about losing culture because of modern immigrants, in fact, I'd bet a lot of those who shout about losing it would also be in favour of not having to learn Irish in secondary school and spend a lot of their time complaining about native things like RTE and the shows it produces.

Irish people seek out foreign music, TV, food, sports of their own volition which of course means a loss of attention for traditional sources of such material. This is not because of any sort of takeover and blaming the comparatively small number of those who do come and stick to their own kind is exaggerating the impact that this has in my view.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495630#Comment_121495630

I'm reminded of when that far right guy Philip Dwyer harangued a person of colour and they responded in fluent Irish. Then he was completely out of depth cause he hasn't a word of it himself. The most vocal about "Irish Patriotism" probably view Dwyer as a patriot....

https://www.thejournal.ie/darragh-adelaide-irish-language-far-right-6185339-Oct2023/

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495630#Comment_121495630

Exactly.

Morris dancing persists in the UK because people go out of their way to support it. Same for vintage trains, cars and so on. Culture is what people make it and now there's more choice than ever before which can only be a good thing.

I'm Irish and I couldn't care less about drink, the GAA, English soccer or motor vehicles which were the only things people I'm from were interested in. I've a Muslim friend who likes the same strategy games as I do along with Politics and History. I'd be much happier to spend time with him than some half cut fool back home going on about Man United while smoking hash over a pint.

Things like religion and traditional music are nothing but symbols for regressives to cynically exploit. They couldn't care less, as was perfectly demonstrated in the Dwyer video there, about real Irish people. They just want to import an odious agenda they've imported from English fascists. They're literal traitors. Had a white Irish person stabbed children, they'd have shrugged their shoulders. Since it was a non-white immigrant, they seized their opportunity and went on a violent looting spree. There's everything you need to know right there.

cdeb

Jaysus, you nip away from a thread for an hour and people are answering questions for you. And taking remarkable liberties with it too.

Yeah, I'm happy I'd have more in common with an Irish person 100 years ago than a Muslim today - even a non-radicalised one. I mean, I've met Irish people from 100 years ago - they'd be among my relatives - and I've factually had more in common with them than non-radicalised Muslims I've met. But evidently random posters on the internet know better than me.

I have to laugh too at Thelonius Monk's comments on the suggestion that what's happening now is clearly unsustainable. "You seem to be trying to say you want to end immigrants coming to do low paid jobs, not sure how you'd go about that if we keep growing and opening multinationals, as low paid jobs are created by these openings and Irish people don't want to do many of these jobs any more as they have better opportunities.," He acknowledges it's completely unsustainable but says that's just the way.

200 years ago he'd be making the same arguments in defence of slavery. "You seem to be trying to say you want to end slaves coming to do menial jobs, not sure how you'd go about that if we keep growing and opening cotton factories, as slave jobs are created by these openings and local people don't want to do many of these jobs any more as they have better opportunities."

But then people realised the error of their ways, the slavers like 1820s Thelonius Monk were overruled and society is much better as a result.

The same applies here, but we get the 1820s hand-washing.

The first step to dealing with your privilege is to recognise it. Unfortunately we're not quite there yet... But if you're that openly on the wrong side of the sustainability argument, then your argument just doesn't stack up. There's not much more to be said there.

rossie1977

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494812#Comment_121494812

What is Irish culture, define it. This is a country settled by pagans and celts plundered by the vikings, then the Normans, then the English, the Dutch, the Spanish tried and the English again.

We are mishmash of cultures and ideals, more conservative in west, more proud of our lands in the south, more liberal in the east and in the north of our island 50% think they are Irish (but not Irish like those southern traitor free-staters and the other 50% think they are British (even though nobody in Britain views them as anything but Irish).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496128#Comment_121496128

You didn't talk to anyone from 100 years ago thats just silly.

Any person living in 2023 regardless of culture or religion has alot more in common with you or me than someone living in 1923. That's just common sense. Our world today would be completely alien to an Irish person in 1923.

Delete that comparison of immigration to slavery. Thats just ridiculous.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494898#Comment_121494898

Indeed. Its not like all those foreigners are actively destroying Irish culture like the GAA either. The opposite - they are joining in and reinforcing it.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496128#Comment_121496128

You really are insufferable lol

notJoeJoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495910#Comment_121495910

As a side note, due to the GAA's ban "foreign sports" in the 20th century, it prevented the growth of Irish football. That's why so many people support English teams they have absolutely no connection to.

If the FAI and Irish football got a fairer share of funding and investment, I think they'd be able to attract people and then they'd be supporting local and Irish teams more. (Maybe if we stopped funding the Greyhound racing industry and all the suffering that comes with it there'd be more money to spend).

Also, as an enthusiast of "vintage trains", it makes me sad we didn't have the same passion that the British did :(