Increase in Anti-EV Media Articles

MarkN

I drove 1,200kms in the last 7 days in an ID.7. Charged while I worked and ate. The rest of the charging would’ve been at home if it was my personal car. Yes public charging is more expensive than current petrol/diesel but the car did it without any fuss. The endless noise about how EVs aren’t up to the job in here is borderline madness at this stage but I’d say the same for the over the top promotion of them too. Everyone breathe.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962117#Comment_121962117

Most cars might have battery preconditioning but not for DC charging to allow maximum charging current, the battery heaters are there mostly to prevent permanent damage to the battery at temps below, if I remember correctly -15-20 Deg C +

The Teslas can preheat when a charger is selected in the navigation software and now too some of the higher range Kia EV's like the EV6.

The majority of electrics do not allow preheating of the battery for DC charging.

To get 400 Km range at an average 18 Kwh/100 km ( based on my id3 tour 5 with 70 odd Kwh available ) we need to do some sums.

18 Kwh/100 Km is 5.55 Km per Kwh so 400 divide by 5.55 = 72 Kwh needed to travel 400 Kms at an "average" efficiency of 18 Kwh/100 km

Average for me with normal driving on motorway some off motorway I would get around 21 Kwh/100 km

Sums are 21 kwh/100 km = 4.76 Km per Kwh, lets say the average Kwh when new for most decent electric cars today is 285 Kms to "empty" meaning you'll want to be plugged in by 260 kms.

Those are realistic numbers based on real driving based on a real EV " my 3rd EV " efficiency hasn't changed a lot with the different smaller electrics.

For larger electrics efficiency and range will be lower.

Lets go the other way, a tesla model 3 probably one of the most efficient electrics out there, say 14 Kwh/100 Km average and 60 Kwh battery ( not sure of the actual available capacity )

Sums, tesla @ 14 Kwh/100 Km = 7.14 km per Kwx x 60 Kwh = 428 Kms, for an average, now bear in mind that's an average so you might get a range of 350 kms on the motorway and you will want to be plugged in 20-30 Kms before.

Viable 2nd cars sure, but as I said, no way I would have an EV if it were our only car without an ICE backup.

The Dacia spring, is that the EV that got 1 star in the NCAP safety test by any chance ? and a total capacity of 26.8 Kwh ? might have 20 Usable Kwh giving a range of maybe 110 Kms. You won't get a range of 305 Kms from it, not even close.

Could this also be the same Dacia Spring with only 45 Hp and a 20 Second 0-100 time ?

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963096#Comment_121963096

Ah here, that's a huge stretch to say the majority of workplaces have charging in place. A small but growing minority do and many of the places that do largely only install one or two points as well as using CPOs. Paying 60c kwh +27c connection fee is no replacement for home charging.

Some lidls can be busy, the local one to me often has cars plugged in. It has two of the six plugs in the locality.

It's not true to say that depreciation only impacts new cars. I bought used specifically to avoid it, yet I've been caught up in it. A 2.5 year old family car should not be losing almost 1k per month, yet here we are.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963386#Comment_121963386

Misquoting me to be added to the goalpost moving on the other thread. I said "a lot", not 'most'. FFS, engage with what I said, not what you want to engage with. Same goes for the 400km range from an ID whatever that I never mentioned.

As for the Dacia Spring, stop making stuff up and actually look at the link I posted. And again moving the goalposts with your point about acceleration and safety. Never were factors in what you originally claimed. Until now.

If you want to argue a point, argue it. Stop being dishonest.

MarkN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963386#Comment_121963386

Did you ever delve into why they don’t score so highly on NCAP? It’s either pedestrian injury (I don’t care how many stars a car has, if you get hit as a pedestrian by a 1.5-2.5t lump of metal at 60, you’re goosed either way), or lack of driver aids. Driver aids push the price of the car up. You can’t have it every other way. Not every car needs an 80kWh battery either, it depends on the needs of the user.

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963399#Comment_121963399

We have 3 work chargers but they are only for management and company cars, they won't be extended to staff private cars. Not even for a fee, which one of the chargers can be set up to do. There are 6 company EVs at the moment.

We said no to one staff member with a Mitsubishi outlander using them, he'd be hogging one every day. We had to think of down the line when more and more cars with a plug start turning up.

Mad_Lad

]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963368#Comment_121963368

Yeah it's great having work charging but most people don't but in fairness the current gen of electrics won't need it, even with 300 Km range there's no need for work charging unless someone really has a crazy commute.

The real issue is being off the motorways in places not served by multiple 100+ kw chargers, the rest of the network are 45/50 Kw chargers and most cars can't take 100kw or more for long.

They suit some who are willing to adjust to the shortcomings but I stand by my opinion that electrics are ideal 2nd cars.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963476#Comment_121963476

Are you for real ? , the spring got occupant score of 49% vs 87% for the Volkswagen id3.

Not everyone needs 80 Kwh battery no, until they do !

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963709#Comment_121963709

If you'd actually read the article I linked, you'd know that this is the new model that has had a number of safety upgrades. Talking about the old model is irrelevant. Never mind that the initial discussion had nothing to do with safety. Or acceleration for that matter.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963399#Comment_121963399

Not sure what CPO you reference with 60c + connection, I could easily reference a petrol price of 1.91 but it doesn't make it one the majority will use... Ecars and Easygo are as low as 51c, plenty of chargepoint places are 33c. Once again I reference 181 for petrol and that's going to be going up for the foreseeable future

Likewise the Lidl near me hasn't been busy since they introduced charging fees

Of course depreciation affects all cars and of course a 1k drop per month is auful but that figure is definitely the exception rather than the rule, my car was 3.5yrs old when I bought it and it definitely didn't lose 1k/month, in fact I'd say what I lost in depreciation I gained massively in fuel savings. But even if it did lose that extortionate amount it doesn't matter as I'm not selling it.

On the topic of depreciation though. When the price of diesel and petrol go above €2 again and the price of electricity continues to come down, meanwhile we move generally towards outlawing the internal combustion engine, what do you think will happen to the resale values of petrol and diesel powered cars?

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963452#Comment_121963452

Ok, after further research I see there is a new model coming 2024 so I will grant you this win for now, however, it only has 30 Kwh and 30 Kw DC charging max. This is not a viable alternative to a 1.0L petrol car in any shape or form, a segment that many auto makers are abandoning.

The NCAP rating doesn't exist yet for this model as far as I can see so I'll reserve judgement on that until the test results are available.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963811#Comment_121963811

Thanks for the W. 😁

But I just want to remind you that the initial criteria (that you set - old age is a curse isn't it?) was 20k and more than 100km range. My work is done.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963476#Comment_121963476

Yes I certainly did and while the outgoing Dacia Spring has a 49% "occupant" safety rating, the Volkswagen ID3 has 87% that's a huge difference. That's nothing even to do with pedestrians. So while the stars might not matter to you much you should certainly worry about the Occupant rating.

NCAP results have not been released for the new Spring as far as I can see.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963727#Comment_121963727

Yes yes, I admit my defeat here, however, the NCAP results haven't been released for the new model that I can see but if you have them then please share.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963818#Comment_121963818

Your work is far from done if you're to convince people that 30 Kwh and 30 Kwh charging is viable alternative to ICE> lol

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963848#Comment_121963848

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. You set the criteria and I found the car that matched them. That you said didn't exist. So take the L my man and sit down.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963873#Comment_121963873

You got to be sh1tting me, lol, anyway. Go to bed.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963762#Comment_121963762

I'm referencing easygo which seems to be the largest cpo in Ireland that has private chargers - a quick scout around the app seems to suggest that 60c/kwh is their standard rate but I'll accept that it could be lower generally, and individually often is. You do accept that you were wrong to state that most employers offer work charging I hope? They clearly don't.

You're right though, the 5k loss over six months is the exception. When I was buying last year I went private and was able to push the seller really hard and got one of the keenest priced ID4s on the day I bought it. Dealers were looking, and getting (as this was before the scare story onslaught) between 5 and 8k more than I paid (I looked at two: best priced 38 and 40, and gone within a week). Today, those buyers are looking at a 10-12k loss over the same period, and God knows what they'd get in a trade if it would even be taken at all.

These are problems that cannot and shouldn't be glossed over. I really like my car and I think the scare stories are overblown BUT the inability of some owners to be honest about the limitations of them and how they need a different mindset to successfully operate is an actual issue. Most of the "horror stories" around EV ownership really have centred around missed expectations - with the prime culprit wltp range being nowhere near reality and overselling generally. Ultimately, the lack of honesty has come back to bite the market and has really hurt confidence in EVs here - as told by stagnant market share in the face of collapsing prices.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963953#Comment_121963953

Personally I'm not sure why so many people seem surprised by the depreciation levels. All auto-manufacturers have been saying for years that the reason EVs were so expensive were down to the cost of batteries, also touted was an eventual reduction in the price of batteries. Logic would suggest prices would fall when that was the talk going on

The other thing that needs to be kept in mind is yes your car is worth €5k less than 6 months ago. The EV you will replace it with, should you do so now, is also €5k less, so have you really lost anything?

Likewise there are problems with ICE cars that cannot and shouldn't be glossed over. The dirty emissions literally killing people, the high cost of fuel, the inability to fill up at home or using a simple 3-pin socket, the inability to fill up on the road if the station is closed, the high servicing costs, the high replacement costs of an engine, exhaust pipes etc. Not all, but some owners to be honest about the limitations of them and how they need a different mindset to successfully operate an Internal Combustion Engine.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964510#Comment_121964510

From what i can see people are so used to the service costs/repairs on combustion cars they totally ignore that when buying a car or looking at a EV.

They focus on a potentially high cost of a repair on a electric car but very low chance of that happening.

While ignoring that you also have the same with a combustion car and Im sure if someone done the maths the same amount of risk.

So if you compare a standard electric with service costs etc it will be cheaper than combustion. Never mind fuel etc.

Also if you compare a low risk but high cost repair both combustion and electric should come in similar.

The way to combat this is with extended warranty, when I pointed this out previous on this thread I was told you can't get on electric, when in fact you can the same as a combustion.

The most popular complaint about an electric is the car is out of warranty and the part if high cost, again as pointed out on this thread with the increase of electric cars on the road, the chance of getting part from a scrap dealer is higher, similar to what you might consider if doing a high cost repair on a combustion car.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964545#Comment_121964545

I used to put €65 a week into my diesel car back when diesel prices were €1.40-€1.50/L, probably cost €80+ now? I put about €10 a week in when I switched which is now gone up to about €12 toady after peaking at about €16 last year. I estimate I am currently saving €68/week or about €3,500 a year just on fuel. That easily overwrites any depreciation in my books, especially when the high depreciation "problem" will affect my next car as well.

Servicing is a lot less of a saving to be fair, the diesel was €150 every 6 months, it's now €40 (all on labour) saving of €220 a year probably neither here nor there.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964601#Comment_121964601

I go to the pump now and 140 into the diesel and it's still not full, that's before the increase in diesel.

I think I pay 0.16c per kWh at night rate. That's probably the highest I have paid for night rate over the years(was lucky with plans I picked). Over 110,000km on car and service costs over that period is probably 500 euro plus additional 300 this year for a new wheel bearing. Previous car I put maybe 50k km's on it. Maybe again 500 euro on service costs

Last year alone the previous diesel I had(traded in this year) I spent circa 3k after air suspension went in car and I stupidly let it run out of extended warranty. The diesel does less than 50% of the yearly mileage we do.

Now Im sure someone could do the maths but to me I have seen a significant saving in having an electric car since 2017. Especially when you consider I was paying less than 10c per kWh for a long time on night rate.

The above doesn't include putting on new tyres onto the cars etc. So far no big cost repairs on either electric car.

Even if I got hit with a big cost repair on the electric I can't see how I would be out of pocket for the amount of mileage I have done.

I don't use public charging, maybe 10-20 times since 2017. Even when it was free I didn't bother.

None of the above is exciting enough for the media to cover. If the car exploded at the side of the road I might get a call 😂

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964690#Comment_121964690

You're highlighting one of the main safety disadvantages to petrol and diesel cars, spontaneous combustion

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964788#Comment_121964788

Strangely enough over the years I have seen a number of cars, not many, on fire at the side of road. None so far have been electric.

One over in England many years ago was pulling a caravan and the caravan ended up on fire as well.

The last few times I seen post on social media of cars on fire, of course people saying its electric, the car in fact turned out to be combustion engine

So I refer to my previous comment, the chance of either car going on fire are very very slim but of course could happen and I don't see any higher percentage chance with the electric v the combustion

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964510#Comment_121964510

Mine is worth 5k less now but some drivers are facing a 10k loss. It's the kind of depreciation that's unheard of for 2.5 year old mid range family cars - these are not exotics we are talking about.

And to dismiss depreciation with a cost to change argument is man-math's at its finest. Depreciation has a real cost, the 5k extra over put into the car could have been put into something else. If the market hadn't been undermined by the manufacturers themselves I'd have a good bit more value in the car. Even now, 5k is a decent family holiday.

There are of course problems with ice cars but these are largely well understood, the market is mature and the powertrains themselves are not radically different from those available 20 years ago. Parts are available second hand and there is an established network of people able to work on them. Contrast that with EVs where you might only have one lad trained in a dealers, and forget about independent repair.

It's not smart or funny to try and use my own words against me. Lack of honesty in pursuit of sales leads to all sorts of bad choices, such as people buying diesel when petrol was far more suitable, and now people not considering electric. They have been frightened away because what manufacturers were telling people were basically a pack of lies about the vehicles capabilities. Wltp is not range.

Yes, you do need a different mindset to operate an Ice vehicle coming from an EV. I'd say you could count on one hand the number of people that started their driving in their own car with EV only before switching to Ice though.

I'd love to see more people in EVs but I don't want the wrong people in them. The wrong people will buy them when they are oversold. The overselling has led to an onslaught of negativity as people find and are disappointed by the limitations. The media and Internet is only too willing to amplify such stories which is why I opened this thread.

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961900#Comment_121961900

What car is it

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964848#Comment_121964848

Exactly

To help your point… Recent examples, the newbridge Mc Donalds fire, the luton airport car park fire and the Fremantle Highway fire. All caused by Internal Combustion Engined cars

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964984#Comment_121964984

Model 3, the non-long range version

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964545#Comment_121964545

You can buy a good 2nd hand ICE for a lot less money with a lot more range and can fill up in 3 mins vs 30-50 ( a lot more if they have a queue at the charger) without fears of high mileage issues with batteries that will cost a fortune to repair, these are genuine concerns whether you choose to ignore them or not.

People can buy a 2nd hand ICE a lot cheaper than a new EV and the car will do as they expect, there are cars more reliable than others, but people should do their research first.

Our Outlander is in for a clutch repair at 110,000 "miles" so what ? it does 30-40 Mpg IMP big deal, it's not doing big mileage.

A lot of diesel issues were caused by blocked DPF because people weren't driving at speeds to clear it out.

there are still some decent turbo petrol cars around,

Compared to maintenance and fuel on a 2nd hand ICE Any new car depreciates heavily, especially EV and then there's the car to pay for which are a lot more expensive today.

If it weren't for PCP EV and new car sales in general would be much lower, I don't think many people realise what they're getting into, I'm on my 3rd, I did my research, it suited me, if someone hasn't the balloon payment in the bank without having to finance it then this is a very bad way to buy new cars and more fool them but I had no intentions keeping the 2015 Leaf or BMW i3 but I might just keep the VW id3.

There are a lot less fortunate people out there that can't spend a lot of money on cars yet the cars for lower income homes are being obliterated for more expensive hybrids and electrics.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966721#Comment_121966721

Motors forum is here