Will the greens be in government after the next general election?

orangerhyme · 22-11-2023 3:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400490#Comment_121400490

Calling them center right doesn't make them center right.

You must show it with policies.

At the most they're centrist.

Irish politics are unusual cos we're influenced by the UK, EU and the USA so we end up a weird mix of left and right policies. Also we often have coalitions of different parties of the left and right spectrum.

So we're pro business and extremely capitalist with lots of lefty policies thrown in.

FG are definitely to the right of FF, SF, GP, SDs, Labour but that doesn't make them center right.

Centrist might be the best compromise.

L1011 · 22-11-2023 3:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400551#Comment_121400551

You quoted a selective list of policies, none of which exclude a party from being centre-right. And then listed the core reasons they are centre-right.

The only unusual factor here is people thinking that comparing to the UK or US is in any way valid, considering they no longer have any (US) or a sizeable (the UK still has the Lib Dems) centre right parties.

orangerhyme · 22-11-2023 3:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400564#Comment_121400564

If they had a single party majority and were left up to their own devices, they might veer right, but even then I'm not sure. I'm just speculating.

We're closer to the Nordic model and European liberalism but with lower taxes thrown in.

I'm comparing us to the UK and US cos they've similar culture and I have some knowledge of their politics.

SF call themselves left wing and marxist but have a huge amount of anti-immigrant voters.

Does that mean they're really far right?

SF have been in power in NI for decades but has much lower social welfare than us.

Does that mean they're really center right but call themselves left wing to appeal to voters who are disenfranchised by the traditional big parties in Ireland?

L1011 · 22-11-2023 3:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400619#Comment_121400619

SF in Government in NI are not left wing and their recent shifts down here are moving their ROI operation more towards the centre too.

Larbre34 · 22-11-2023 3:35pm

Of course they are.

Its that old truism with SF; if you don't care for their policies, hang around, they've got others!

Bunch of grifters.

orangerhyme · 22-11-2023 3:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400639#Comment_121400639

They're veering right cos they want to get into power.

orangerhyme · 22-11-2023 3:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400678#Comment_121400678

They should sort out NI first before they try to govern us.

22-11-2023 3:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400490#Comment_121400490

We are way more expense, in college fees, compared to the rest of the EU. Yes there is means testing for very low income families but it is very low, relative tot he cost of missing a SUSI grant.

Our general social welfare rate is below EU average and many soc dem countries have stronger supports for recently unemployed

orangerhyme · 22-11-2023 3:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399727#Comment_121399727

Good stuff.

L1011 · 22-11-2023 3:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400793#Comment_121400793

The person trying to claim they were low and that our welfare rates were high and that all proved FG were centre left is the one to debate that minutiae with.

AndrewJRenko · 22-11-2023 4:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400531#Comment_121400531

100% correct. It's also usually thrown about by those who get confused between FG's actions in coalition governments and FG's core values.

orangerhyme · 22-11-2023 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400904#Comment_121400904

Or it's an objective view of their consistent policies over many decades which puts them center left.

SF are more right than FG if you view their policies. It's easy to say you're on the left, much harder to actually implement liberal progressive policies.

Can you really say Simon Harris is centre right?

AndrewJRenko · 22-11-2023 4:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400044#Comment_121400044

SF candidate in Rathdown Tracey isn't even on the Council, very low profile. It could be one of the very few constituencies where they don't get a seat.

Rathdown should be ripe territory for SDs also, but they've never had a credible candidate in the area either.

CM is probably safe as a result.

I wouldn't agree that ER is safe. That constituency will be very tight, with Bacik, Ryan, O'Callaghan all fighting it out.

AndrewJRenko · 22-11-2023 4:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400928#Comment_121400928

When you say "their consistent policies over many decades", are you referring to their actual party policies or their actions as part of coalition governments over many decades?

orangerhyme · 22-11-2023 4:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400941#Comment_121400941

Same sex marriage and reproductive rights were core FG policies. They campaigned for them. It wasn't a compromise as part of a coalition.

Those are solid center left policies.

I know Leo is on record as being against same sex marriage but he changed his tune, so did Barack Obama.

orangerhyme · 22-11-2023 4:33pm

FG are a mish mash of left and right policies so maybe the best description is that they're centrist.

Fiscally they're right, socially they're left.

FF are the same.

They're definitely low corporation tax, low regulation, pro business.

The IFSC was a haven of unbridled capitalism and maybe still is. It also was a key factor in turning our country around just before the Celtic Tiger which lifted half the country into upper working class and middle class.

TaurenDruid · 22-11-2023 5:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390719#Comment_121390719

I'm hoping the current government stay in power but I'm not confident of that happening.

Although obviously not perfect and they've made lots of mistakes, there's a huge amount of experience and competence in the current government. Also all the personal connections they've built up in that time.

There's a lot of cognitive dissonance in those two sentences. They're incompetent. They're experienced at being incompetent. 'Personal connections' with who? Owners of vulture funds? Developers? Privatised businesses that used to be public? FF have literally bankrupted the country twice in my living memory.

I really like the work Eamon Ryan is doing. Also the housing crisis is at an inflection point too.

What work?! We have a Green Party in government, with ministries, and they've achieved... what, exactly? More roads? Still no more rail. A Climate Action Plan that doesn't go near far enough, doesn't address the polluters, doesn't facilitate the disruptors that could make a difference (Dublin Bus have electric buses sitting idle because it's taken over a year so far to get planning permission to install charging infrastructure!), a forestry plan that's essentially "plant as much sitka spruce as possible, claim that as carbon banking, ignore that it'll all be cut down and used as wood pellets!! Soooo many missed opportunities!

Don't even get me started on housing! The current crisis has arrived after who, exactly, has been in power, overseeing it all? FF. And FG. Literally for the last 100 years. 100 years!

I don't trust SF in power whatsoever, but maybe if they're in coalition with FF, it might keep them under control.

I get "better the devil you know", sure, but look at the state of the country under FF and FG - two cheeks of the same arse! I'm no Shinner, but how many tribunals, inquiries and crises does it take before you go, "Actually, when Stormont's been running, they've not been ****. Maybe - just maybe - it's time for change?

Any party that has the likes of Johnathan Dowdall and Paddy Holohan as councillors I want nothing to do with.

Seems they kick them out fairly pronto if there are any problems? Google "councillor convicted" - lots of FF, FG and independent councillors with fingers in pies. And other places. And fists in faces. And not always kicked out, or allowed to rejoin after a suitable period in the wilderness.

AndrewJRenko · 22-11-2023 5:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400951#Comment_121400951

Strange how the party leader at the time didn't subscribe to these 'core FG policies'?

https://www.joe.ie/politics/leo-varadkar-abortion-eight-amendment-615851

FG were dragged under severe protest through the marriage equality and repeal referendums. They managed to correctly judge public opinion at a fairly late stage. Their 2011 manifesto has no mention of these 'core FG policies' that you mention. Are you misremembering?

orangerhyme · 22-11-2023 5:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121401098#Comment_121401098

I don't have time for proper response right now but FG performed an economic miracle.

We've the 3rd highest median salaries in the EU. When you adjust for taxes and cost of living, we're 9th in the EU. I'm not counting Luxembourg.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/en/web/products-eurostat-news/w/ddn-20231103-1

We're around Sweden, France and Finland in terms of standard of living, above Italy and Spain comfortably. Hardly the shithole people claim we are.

We were the poorest country in Western Europe.

They made a balls of housing but it seems to be a global problem in many other western cities.

The housing crisis is turning a corner right now.

Read the " Housing Supply Coordination Task Force report."

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/7ae27-housing-supply-coordination-task-force-return-reports-q1-q4-2023/

orangerhyme · 22-11-2023 5:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121401108#Comment_121401108

They campaigned for both.

Did Simon Harris seem like he was being dragged along?

TaurenDruid · 22-11-2023 5:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121392664#Comment_121392664

None of the SDs I know would jump at it. Remember one of their former leaders walked out of a junior ministry becaue of FG corruption. A load of them are former Labour - the ones who didn't want to go into government with FF.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121392267#Comment_121392267

Solar panels: too little, too late. Why doesn't every government department, public building, school, hospital, local authority, etc., have solar on their roofs? Would save money in the long term and the money is there now to pay for it, or could have been borrowed at 0% interest over the lifetime of the current government. Why don't planning permissions for apartments, new houses, data centres, hotels, etc., have mandatory inclusion of solar PV in theor planning permission?

Cycle lanes: where?! Some local authorities have put some in, sure. Others have refused (Galway, I'm looking at you!) because it'd interfere with cars. DCC are building a cycle lane from Clontarf to Amiens St. Along the pre-existing cycle lane! (Sure, there are some new bits, but over half of it was already there!)

Bottle and can deposit scheme: After 4 years in power, a scheme is on the way that'll make it really hard for off licences and small breweries to cope with. And aren't bottles excluded because of lobbying? https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058063455/supporting-craft-breweries/p122

Forestry: The plan is "Grow loads of sitka spruce, because **** biodiversity. Then cut it down, and sell it for profit. If it gets burnt as fuel? Well, what do we care, we've made our profit and claimed the carbon credits!"

AndrewJRenko · 22-11-2023 5:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121401138#Comment_121401138

The Simon Harris who "until recently he saw no reason to change Ireland's restrictive laws"?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/simon-harris-i-felt-ashamed-at-abortion-treatment-and-changed-my-view/36443198.html

Yes, he was a great campaigner, after he worked out where the majority opinion was sitting.

These were absolutely NOT core FG policies.

TaurenDruid · 22-11-2023 5:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400951#Comment_121400951

Same sex marriage and reproductive rights were core FG policies. They campaigned for them. It wasn't a compromise as part of a coalition.

Those are solid center left policies.

You can be economically centre-right (all the way to neoliberal) and culturally/socially centre-left (so long as those policies don't effect "the economy"). Things like work-life balance, shorter working week, universal basic income, etc., which would be viewed as centre-left mainstays, don't get any support from FG.

orangerhyme · 22-11-2023 5:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121401147#Comment_121401147

Eamon Ryan said last year that every school will get free solar but nothing's happened, but I'm not supportive of this policy.

In terms of "bang for your buck"/"economies of scale" solar farms and domestic solar are much better, so I'm not supportive of public buildings getting free solar.

I don't have any data but Dublin's cycle lanes have increased exponentially, particularly since Covid.

There's loads of native forestry schemes.