If Metrolink was scrapped, what are the alternatives?

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540975#Comment_121540975

Are you saying you’re the AG? I am not saying I stay up and read Wylie or Kelly ever night but I am not ignorant on the topic!

What are you disputing here? My experience is that we have a whole host of property laws and rights here. That is reflected in how ROs are put down on the statute books. Proportionality and time limits are all over the shop when you read anything on it.

Generally speaking in order for the State to exercise CPO powers, there are quite a few tests to overcome. A Railway Order is like a whole basket of them and as such takes a reasonable amount of time to draft and get through the system. And they have to have limits.

I don’t think the HA 1947 is a reasonable comparison during C19. The Constitution iirc allows for suspension during wars and pandemics don’t fit into that. But basically the cases taken were either by headbangers like O’Doherty or the State ran from them (hotel quarantine). I cannot see how an open ended licence for the government to impinge on people’s property rights could ever pass mustard. If you take that property on Pearse Street that Irish Rail really wanted- is it reasonable that the State could have an open ended restriction on it? There’s a very good reason why there are time limits on those kinds of statutes. Even property rights have to have limits which is why we have squatters rights etc.

Tbh I’m not even sure with ECHR rights that we could have something so open ended with our Constitution.

I think what should have happened is to have kept a skeleton crew on these projects such that we weren’t starting from scratch. A toughy thought as the government were cutting things left, right and centre. Also as noted here, Metro North didn’t really work without DART Underground. It’s hard to plan stuff when you have no idea of resourcing.

Brian CivilEng

Hang on, the Metro North railway order was only granted in 2010, and lasted for 10 years. We were back borrowing on the money markets by 2013, if it hadn’t been cancelled in 2011 could it not have been revived? It was a short term decision, we are paying for it now.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540680#Comment_121540680

All I can say is that we have very different memories of the 09 crash and leave it at that.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541025#Comment_121541025

Where in Ballymun or Northwood could be further developed though ? Genuine question btw I’m just not seeing it.

im certainly with you on taking cars off the road… but as always in the stupid country, good ideas are kicked down the road again and again.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541187#Comment_121541187

Northwood is all green fields.

Ballymun has loads of land available for development. Look at Google Maps.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541054#Comment_121541054

I am not the AG.

However, as a learned law student, you must know that the AG advises the Gov for all legal matters.

We need a constitutional amendment to rebalance property rights, which currently favour the property owner too much with the tenant rights not significant to protect them from unfair eviction, and the common good not represented nearly enough.

Edit: Clarification.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539964#Comment_121539964

Thank god you've finally come up with this proposal. We were all getting rather worried! 4 years of detailed assessments by planners and engineers really does look silly in comparison to this thorough design.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541303#Comment_121541303

Why the snark?

You follow up with what exactly I said, that we would have needed a constitutional amendment.

That said, I don’t think there’s many democracies where open ended planning permissions or railway orders could be put in place that limits someone’s fundamental rights.

BagofWeed

An extensive horse and cart service between the airport and O'Connell Street and a cycling route taking up one northbound and one southbound lane of the Port Tunnel and the M1 with cycle hire and bike return facilities along the route. The new snazzy travelling themed logo could be, 'Shur where would ya be going in a hurry anyway '.

Soft face slapping sounds.. "Eamon, Wake up Eamon ! You've been talking in your sleep again, Eamon".

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541778#Comment_121541778

I did not post that I think we need a constitutional amendment to do with planning permission but to balance property rights to be more equal towards property owners, renters, and the common good.

You, learned law student as you are, know that any attempt to prolong planning permission for strategic infrastructure could only be achieved by a constitutional amendment. Well, yyou might suggest a suitable wording that might achieve that aim.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540424#Comment_121540424

I disagree with this Merkel and Germany bashing. By "bailouts" you mean tapping the German tax payer and handing the money over to countries which had demonstrated economic incompetence. There's nothing reasonable in the expectation that German worker should hand over their tax to pay for Ireland to build metros while their own local cities have crumbling infrastructure or work til 66 to pay for pensions for 54 year old Greek retirees. This ingratitude is common but to be honest, is not a good look for Ireland given we were on the brink of being unable to pay teachers' and Guards' salaries when the 70B bailout program - largely funded by Germany - gave the country a lifeline. Anyway this is off topic so probably not worth expanding further.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542127#Comment_121542127

You seem very put out that I stated the obvious.

Do you know how CPOs, Railway Orders etc work? Have you read the Metrolink one?

You seem to be devolving with the above here which is just incoherent waffle at this stage.

For the record, I would have happily seen these planning permissions roll forward. But I also know that is not the reality of the country we live in. Even more we get to the political realities, it wasn’t passing mustard.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542262#Comment_121542262

I stand by my assessment of her as very short sighted.

Do not get me wrong - this country needed a massive retrenchment in State spending.

I do not accept though that the bailout programmes were a success. Ireland was a “success” because we had the building blocks there and other advantages that meant high quality FDI flowed back in here.

To sit around though and watch productive youth of populations emigrate from the bloc or sit around whilst infrastructure deficits increased was moronic. This was figured out but far too late and with not enough financing.

In terms of the programmes, don’t forget that structurally that this benefited them (as did ECB policies).

As Chancellor, I stand by my assessment. Her leadership often looked strong in the short term, but she was generally playing to a domestic audience (as all politicians do). Her policies stored up an awful lot of problems on the continent and I find this idea that she was an amazing European leader as ridiculous.

Idbatterim

the germans did bail us out, but they were also bailing themselves out at the same time.

KrisW1001

Back in a bit lads, I'm just off to the EU Politics forums to talk about underground railways...

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540063#Comment_121540063

Not ten times what we already have, no. But if you add up all the plans (or, at least, proposals) which were never built the poster is not that far off. e.g. Metro North and Metrolink is 2 plans, but only one can be built. Proposals for underground rail in Dublin started 50 years ago...

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540305#Comment_121540305

There were large cuts across the board to public sector pay. Why this is repeatedly denied I've no idea.

Hotblack Desiato

the 70B bailout program - largely funded by Germany

the germans did bail us out

German taxpayers or those of any other member state didn't give us a cent during the bailout.

spacetweek

Re: the comment about what percentage of stuff we plan versus actually build.

If you include re-announcements and re-brands and redesigns, it's looking bad.

A Platform For Change, Transport21 and various NDPs over the last 25 years have contained all currently active plans and many more. Many of these plans were way more ambitious than now. For example, APFC (2000) had a metro line all the way from Swords to Bray! Navan Rail has been in all of these plans. Luas to Lucan and Finglas were in all from the last 15-20 years.

Saying "but we're building some of them now" is a bit specious. Yes but we're building them decades after we said we would.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121678460#Comment_121678460

The point people are making is that plans are relatively meaningless and rebranding them is just marketing and politics. Anyone can use crayons on a map.

However when it comes to actually giving the official go ahead to a project and actually putting a project team in place and investing money in it, we have a very good track record of actually delivering those projects.

I think it is an important distinction to make, because I often hear people say things like we need build infrastructure or are bad at it, so we shouldn’t bother with Metrolink and just give up on it. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

I think it needs to be rammed home that TII in particular (but others too) have a fantastic track record of delivering projects.

No, we need to properly identify the problem and it is with the politicians, constantly delivering flashy new plans, while not just knuckling down and giving the go ahead and financing to ready to go projects.

Basically give TII, etc. the money and get out of the fecking way!

spillit67

I personally don’t think politicians these days want to be associated with large projects.

For one thing, there is the bizarro anger from people who suddenly become fiscal conservatives over infrastructure and who spout “only in Ireland” type stuff, ignorant of the world around them. Secondly, few will be in power once they are delivered.

This differs from the Bertie era, where there was this manifest destiny to FF in government. A feeling that it would never end, or at least would only ever end briefly. Since then the change in the political landscape and the unrelenting poisonous negativity has taken over.

Though I am hopeful that the HS2 reaction in the U.K. will change things.