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If Metrolink was scrapped, what are the alternatives?

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    #122
    Consonata
    Registered Users Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭Consonata


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438686#Comment_121438686

    It wouldn't pass planning permission if there isn't transport capacity. It's one of the areas which ABP look at.



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    #123
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yep, I’m not saying there would be zero homes built, a couple here or there sure. But there is no way massive developments of thousands of homes would be granted by ABP.

    Also that land North of Swords isn’t currently zoned for housing and thus the reason why it hasn’t already been built on. It will only get rezoned if ML comes.

    Just go take a look at Fingal County Councils Swords development plans, it is all largely built around ML.



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    #124
    BlueSkyDreams
    Registered Users Posts: 3,275 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439252#Comment_121439252

    There is car capacity to a degree though. We cant not build houses because we dont have ML.

    Otherwise we would barely build homes anywhere.

    Build them with the plans for ML in mind, sure. But realistically, how long will it take for ML to be operational?

    We shouldnt be waiting a decade plus to build homes so close to the city centre.



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    #125
    Consonata
    Registered Users Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭Consonata


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121443078#Comment_121443078

    We build on the basis of future transport capacity. And there isn't car capacity, the M1 is clogged in the mornings already at the best of times, driving more people into using tunnel, for a purpose it was never designed for (getting cargo and lorries off ships and onto the motorway network reasonably quickly.)

    Most housing plans take 4-5 years when you factor in planning, financing etc. Metrolink will be operational likely before 2035, but possibly parts of it sooner than that. That is the time frame we operate on when we are rezoning large parts of Fingal.



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    #126
    spillit67
    Registered Users Posts: 642 ✭✭✭spillit67


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437382#Comment_121437382

    I’ve already run the times. All off peak so add another couple of mins on at heavy commute time.

    6.5 mins to SSG

    9.5 mins to Dawson

    13.5 mins to Westmoreland St

    I don’t expect people who normally go to SSG or Dawson to switch. Perhaps if someone is going east of Merrion Row they may feel it is natural to switch to save a perceived walk.

    Westmoreland Street is trickier.

    Switch from LUAS to Metro: 3 to 5 mins

    Metro to SSG: 2 mins

    Dwell time: 60 seconds

    Metro to Tara Street: 2 mins

    Station exit: 2 mins (LUAS is quicker)

    So 10 to 12 mins.

    That works out quicker. If going east of Westmoreland I would say Tara 100%. Lots of people who will head down to GCD too who might switch to the DART from there. If going to Trinity I would also say Tara as there is the new entrance there and it’s more accessible.

    That said, the time benefit may not be viewed as so great to justify a switch for many. I would say peak times could be interesting though. You’d probably need a perceived benefit of 5 mins to justify it for many. I’d also say the opportunity to get off packed trams would be another one.

    I can see people who normally getting on at Charlemount still opting for the Green Line if going to Harcourt Street (though they’re very close and given how packed the Green Line can be at commuter times I’m not sure why you’d put yourself through that to save a few mins) or beyond O’Connell Street. Doesn’t make a huge amount of sense to get on the Green otherwise.

    This scenario thinking can be switched if you think of the northside Green Line. There’s probably going to be less incentive to switch overall because the station integration won’t be as good at O’Connell Street.

    My overall point is that digging up the tracks in the city is a mental idea. They will still provide a utility to many normal Green Line users and it opens up other opportunities in the future



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    #127
    spillit67
    Registered Users Posts: 642 ✭✭✭spillit67


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437095#Comment_121437095

    Where is the data on urban areas from?



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    #128
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Why would anyone even suggest digging up tram lines in Dublin?

    Did they not remove one of the Best tram systems in the 1930s and replace them with buses that were not nearly as good but were nice and shiny. So why make the same mistake twice?

    Now, I would expect the Metrolink will go to Sandyford, which will be planned during the first short while following the first TBM starting its journey underground. The timing should allow the TBM to complete the connection to the Green Line south of Charlemont.



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    #129
    BlueSkyDreams
    Registered Users Posts: 3,275 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121443192#Comment_121443192

    Would we really not build homes for 12 years, just because ML wasnt up and running?

    We could run express bus services into town from there. Build cycle lanes etc. I am not saying it is car or nothing, but we need homes now.

    Space that close to the centre should build around the ML line, but it should not wait until 2035, when lets be honest, that deadline will probably get kicled down the road anyway.

    We cant wait forever for a train that may never arrive.

    And it if does arrive, we can be ready for it.



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    #130
    BlueSkyDreams
    Registered Users Posts: 3,275 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121443228#Comment_121443228

    They arent planning to dig up the LUAS lines for ML are they?



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    #131
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121443258#Comment_121443258

    The CSO.

    All of the red area in the below map (click to enlarge) is the highest density areas in Ireland. You can easily see all the areas of North Dublin City are high density.

    The density only falls off after the M50, you are then into the area of Dublin Airport. Obviously the housing density around the airport falls way off, but the airport will obviously be a massive journey generator in it's own right.

    You can then see the density of Swords beyond the airport. You can also see the fantastic opportunity for new very dense development North of Swords.

    Untitled Image




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    #132
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121443422#Comment_121443422

    No, of course not!

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121443399#Comment_121443399

    Again, ABP would simply deny any major developments. It really is as simple as that. Again, some small developments sure, but not large scale development.



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    #133
    gjim
    Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭gjim


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121443353#Comment_121443353

    Once ML is up and running, they should split the current Green line - and terminate the southern section at Charlemont.

    The northern section should then be extended from Harcourt either south through Rathmine/Terenure or else east via Adelaide Road and on to Irishtown and the new Glass Bottle site development.

    This would have the satisfying upside of being very annoying for the Ranelagh/south suburban NIMBY's - who scuppered the original ML plan because of "disruption" and I'd imagine that they would would soon be marching with pitch-forks demanding that the link-up with ML.

    It would also provide a rail/tram option for a large area of the city currently without one.



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    #134
    spillit67
    Registered Users Posts: 642 ✭✭✭spillit67


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121443422#Comment_121443422

    No. Someone here suggested it.



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    #135
    spillit67
    Registered Users Posts: 642 ✭✭✭spillit67


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121443599#Comment_121443599

    Link?



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    #136
    Ronald Binge Redux
    Registered Users Posts: 238 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121443399#Comment_121443399

    Part of the problem though when much of Official Ireland constantly looks for cheapo permanent alternatives for rail, and then wring their hands when the buses don't get people out of cars



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    #137
    BlueSkyDreams
    Registered Users Posts: 3,275 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445974#Comment_121445974

    I agree, buses wont get people out of their cars.

    We do need an underground network, but we need to build houses now & with metro in mind.

    Build in alignment with it, but dont wait for it....we will be waiting a long time for ML to be operational.

    We dont have time to wait for housing.



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    #138
    ArcadiaJunction
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭ArcadiaJunction


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121443960#Comment_121443960

    excellent and senisible idea - which is why it won't happen.



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    #139
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446028#Comment_121446028

    I won’t really say that about buses. I live in an apartment building and pretty much every one here leaves their car at home and takes the bus into work!

    But that is because we live by one of the core bus corridors, half a dozen busy routes pass, so bus every 2 or 3 minutes and pretty good bus corridor all the way in makes it much faster then by car. Plus the expensive of parking in the city.

    I know not everyone has such a good service, but it does show me that buses can be popular if the level of service and speed is high enough.

    But yes, we certainly shouldn’t be so reliant on buses. And realistically we are approaching the practical limits of the road and bus network. Bus Onnects will help a little, but we desperately need ML to help take the pressure off the bus network.



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    #140
    BlueSkyDreams
    Registered Users Posts: 3,275 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446547#Comment_121446547

    Aye. Buses work if youre on a straight line to your destinaton and frequency is high.

    If not, forget it.

    Most of us forget it.

    Was chatting to a young someone that commutes to TCD from South Dublin.

    They get the bus, but once they pass their driving test, its car all the way.



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    #141
    G_R
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,025 Mod ✭✭✭✭G_R


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447914#Comment_121447914

    Driving to TCD would be insanity.

    Doesn't TCD have something like 99% of it's students/staff arriving by active travel.



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    #142
    gjim
    Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭gjim


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447914#Comment_121447914

    Where are they expecting to park?



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    #143
    maninasia
    Registered Users Posts: 4,616 ✭✭✭maninasia


    It was cancelled in 2011 or rather I should say the planning stage was cancelled, Varadkar announced it, bad mistake they should have kept it limping along for a couple of years in the planning stage. Yes would have cost a bit of money but should not have bottled it .



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    #144
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447983#Comment_121447983

    The Luas Cross City line was built over it. Where some of the stations were meant to go.

    Plus it was designed to integrate with Dart Underground which has also largely been cancelled.

    It was a very over complicated and complex design, the Metrolink is a far more realistic and achievable design with nice integration with the new DART+ project.

    Of course I would have loved if MetroNorth went ahead, specially as unlike ML it had a stop near my home. But ML is a better design now.



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    #145
    Mr_Messy
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭Mr_Messy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437095#Comment_121437095

    There is a tunnel already there that can get people from Swords to the City Centre in less than 30mins. If the primary purpose of Metrolink is to service Swords than it should be built elsewhere.



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    #146
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,081 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    🙄🙄

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #147
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,843 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    s

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121443422#Comment_121443422

    no, but you would wonder if ML is built, would they reduce the tram length to stop the OCB blockages with the current super long trams...



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    #148
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,843 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121471712#Comment_121471712

    Yeah and to the south city sandyford, leopardstown, cherry wood? They decided not to build the few km tunnel that would have enabled even quicker access to there than metrolink.... and taken off 30 stops...



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    #149
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,081 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121472016#Comment_121472016

    The answer to that is not shorter trams, it's fewer cars

    (not sure if sarcastic)

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #150
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,969 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    A road tunnel from Coolock to congested Docklands with no intermediate access is no substitute for a rail tunnel for the whole northside with frequent stops. And they aren't going to be digging an Luas up for Metro, not sure where that came from.



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    #151
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385456#Comment_121385456

    Right, they're more Daffy Duck. The luas is a very a limited system that was passed off as a cheap metro alternative, rather than conceived of as a genuine continental style tram network with multiple services criss-crossing the city.

    Its still thought of that way, as a bargain basement metro, with only two over-long lines, over-long vehicles and no plans for a large web-like network like Prague or Amsterdam or Brussels.

    The luas is an exceptionally poor return on a massive economic boom. Your views are sadly typical of the low standards we accept as a country.



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