If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on [email protected] for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact [email protected]

If Metrolink was scrapped, what are the alternatives?

  • 18-11-2023 6:42pm
    Registered Users Posts: 17,633 ✭✭✭✭

    I dont want to keep bringing the metrolink thread off topic. There are two sides, those with a crystal ball, saying it will be built and those not too confident, based on many very valid reasons and experience, disappointment over decades on the governments total lack of will and spending on public transport and rail in particular.

    What are the options, if metrolink is scrapped on cost grounds, you cant say a high capacity metro is needed, then ditch it and say "ah shure buses will do it" HOWEVER! This is ireland and that is a totally plausible outcome.

    In terms of a rail connection, are there options, that could connect the northern line to swords, to the airport and city centre, without the same spend? But actually be a realistic alternative. Not some luas finglas to the airport extension farce...

    Post edited by spacetweek on



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,633 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim

    I believe 18,500 units are currently under construction in Dublin, population increasing by over 30,000 a year. It would seem beyond belief that it could be scrapped, I agree with you. But I am not that old, yet I know this country too well at this stage...

  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 13,788 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3

    Clonsilla-M3 Parkway was also built during this time.

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,788 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl

    I said they were not "mickey mouse" because they are not (unless you mean to refer to the 100B$ global corporation). Other cities have struggled to build far less extensive systems during the same period. They were also pushed through against significant media pressure from the usual sectors who then pretended otherwise afterwards when it was wildly successful.

    The Luas is great and was a big capital investment. MN would have been built absent the worst economic crisis the country has faced since independence. ML will be built.

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,788 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3

    The Luas is a mixed bag.

    Too slow in the city centre for the most part.

    A shambles with regard to connecting Tallaght to the city centre.

    Grand along previous rail alignments and the Naas Road.

    Reminds me a lot of our cycle paths/lanes.

  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 9,287 ✭✭✭tom1ie

    OP good thread and thanks for starting as it’s a fair point.

    I believe ultimately metrolink will be built and must be built if Dublin and hence Ireland, is to progress however it will (continue to) drag on in the planning stages due to the lack of capacity in ABP and then be referred to a JR- so we are looking at a Railway order from ABP, at the very best case of late 2024 I believe? Then a JR which could take 3 years so possibly late 2027 before we know if it’s going ahead?

    It will then hopelessly run over budget in construction due to the lack of PM oversight on the states behalf- private contract PMs plus private construction contractors will do well off the back of it.

    As a result any talk of a second metro line will be immediately shot down leaving the likes of tallaght, Rathfarnham, rathmines, terenure- absolutely gridlocked for years to come.

    This is all based on an FFG and other government being returned as opposed to a SF government who would drive FMN away from Ireland due to their high wealth tax policies and as a result kill MN and blame it on an economic downturn.

    This is also based on trump (if he gets in) not pushing his isolation policies to the max and demanding all FMN profits are returned to the US of A and thus crashing our economy in one foul stroke by removing the €37 Bn in wages that the FNMs pay in wages here.

  • Registered Users Posts: 202 ✭✭loco_scolo

    Bit of doomsday for Monday.

    SF are not so stupid to drive away the money. They know where it comes from. They know they'll never get into government again if they drive it away and they know Ireland will never be a single united jurisdiction if we can't afford it. Why would anyone in NI give up a privileged position between UK and EU if SF have taxed all the jobs and FMN away.


  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭SharkMX

    How long has it been on the go now in some form or another?

    There has to be a point when you come to the realization that its never going to happen, as much as you close your eyes and wish for it as hard as you can.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,365 ✭✭✭timmyntc

    MNCs arent going to up sticks and leave here unless we decide to invade the UK. Thats what it took for MNCs to leave Russia, despite all the other shenanigans and corruption and mad economic policy, it took a war and massive sanctions from multiple fronts for them to leave.

    They will not leave Ireland except for downsizing when they are in dire straits themselves.

    As for the second metro, I would not be surprised if a second metro line begins preparatory work before the 1st is even finished. The demand from neighbourhoods is clearly there for more lines, and once ML opens the demands for new lines will be monstrous. Everyone will want one for themselves. And its important that we keep a pipeline of both heavy rail and metro projects going for the next 50 years, else we risk losing that expertise. So ML-2 is fairly likely IMO.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭JohnnyChimpo

    Titles this clickbait-y should be bannable imo

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,314 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill

    The path the MN "Needs" to take is a bit of a pain. I passes through many areas that are medium density and not ultra high density residential zones.

    Yes it will serve the airport (and that's very important), but the bulk of the passengers will be people commuting from Swords (Ireland's next City) to Dublin.

    The busiest stops are going to be 2/3 in Swords Northwood, Ballymun, Dublin Airport and 2/3 in Dublin City. The rest of the stops are in either where no one actually lives: (Dardiston, Estuary) or are surrounded by 3 bed semi-D's. Its difficult to justify running rail under Semi-D's.

    I think the planning system is as fault here as a combination of and underground rail and elevated rail is clearly the answer. But we're stuck with underground for most of the way which means its going to be extremely expensive. (The Stations are going to be the most expensive bit I think, Dublin has a lot of hills so they need to go deep with goosing the gradient).

    DAA are also being an absolute pain in the hole with planning for this project.

    Personally I REALLY hope it's built, but I think it'll be canned or kicked down the road.


    Just to add, what's happening with the NCH is a real indicator of what "Could" happen with Metro. the NCH should have been a Huge win for the government, but poor decision making, design and possibly cronyism have seen that win turn into an absolute disaster with the possibility of Sinn Fein Taoiseach cutting the ribbon on it in 2025

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,287 ✭✭✭tom1ie

    It’s clear as day to all of us that a second line needs to be built- however I wouldn’t share your optimism saying it’s fairly likley.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,365 ✭✭✭timmyntc

    The current planning process black hole will eventually be rectified. And TII will not rest of their laurels - as soon as most of their work on ML starts to wind down, I can assure you they will already be ramping up proposals and feasibility for line number 2.

    The whole point of these agencies is to always be working on projects - and politically after people see the success of ML it will be a no brainer for any govt to throw money at TII for line 2 or 3 etc

  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 202 ✭✭loco_scolo

    All of the stops will be extremely busy except for Daridstown - is that still a planned future station or part of the current plans? Estuary has P&R, then you have the Dart interchange at Cross Guns. DCU. The Mater. And don't forget all the bus routes that will feed passengers into every stop from every direction.

    I think most cities are stuck with underground in the central areas, it's not unique to Dublin. And yeah let's hope lessons have been learned from NCH.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,314 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill

    According to the latest map here: Daridstown is still planned (It's the depot). Estuary is marked Park & Ride so potentially it could be extremely busy now that I think about it.

    Having looked at Swords, The line is on the wrong side of the town (Probably for convivence using the same route as the swords by pass, but no it's on the commercial/industrial side as opposed to the residential side)

    Best job I could do overlaying Stops/Route with a map that shoes the type of buildings it passes under.

    I think given the price it's going to be very hard to justify. As far as I can see they've put the stops in sites where there is nothing already built. (Makes sense seeing how deep they're going to have to dig.)

    There's a good video on the armchair urbanist about costs rising exponentially the deeper you go.

    EDIT wasted my time with the Map 🤣

    Better one here:

    Points above still remain valid. I think CBA will come along and state this is way to expensive.

    Similar project in the San Jose been kicked down the road too:

    Unless you can cut and cover, the cost are just prohibitively expensive

    Post edited by Beta Ray Bill on

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,762 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek

    Thread title updated.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭Consonata

    IMHO there is little point in trying to draw comparison with the NCH. They are distinct projects with distinct priorities and different supply chains and constraints. The same team that constructs a hospital doesn't construct a railway. If you are looking for analogues, look to BXD, a line which was built on time and under budget.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,287 ✭✭✭tom1ie

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,287 ✭✭✭tom1ie

    Yes I know ABP is the bottleneck which is what I posted.

    It’s also very likely that whenever it gets through ABP it’ll face a JR.

    It’s not “doomposting” it’s realism.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭Consonata

    It's not realism when it's not borne out by evidence of the current process however. Like when you actually interrogate peoples cynicism surrounding the project, we get the usual about the NCH, how Metro North got a railway order and never built, how this country is hopeless at building core infrastructure, when this couldn't be further from the truth?

    I will happily criticise the NTA and TII in certain regards, but to say that they cannot design, plan and build infrastructure with relative efficiency isn't true. They're probably one of the few organisations in the state which can claim that title. This rubbish about FDI fleeing when Trump gets in/SF start taxing us all, is just irrelevant to whether we have the capacity to build ML or not

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,287 ✭✭✭tom1ie

    Ok so I never criticised TII.

    Ive criticised ABP and by extension on other threads- Darragh o brien as he’s the minister responsible for ABP.

    When/if metrolink gets referred for a JR that’s another 3 years onto the planning process.

    In 2020 €1 out of every €5 was generated by a FMN amounting to 11bn and of that 56% was generated by 10 companies.

    So yes an isolationist government in America coupled with a pro wealth tax SF would not be great for us and metrolink.

  • Advertisement