If Metrolink was scrapped, what are the alternatives?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121403885#Comment_121403885

No, but sort of.

Aircraft do pass over Donabate after take off, but by that point there are already at an altitude of over 10,000 feet, so no major issues with noise, etc. So no real issues.

It is the area directly East and West of the runways where aircraft are at a low level approach that is an issue. That is why the idea of extending DART from Portmarnock has such a poor value proposition. That area is directly under the flight path and has very limited if any development potential.

Donabate or Rush and Lusk have incredible development potential by comparison, which would make for an easy CBA.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399830#Comment_121399830

As others have mentioned CPO's don't work that way.

It is most likely the developer is hoping to profit by building massive amount of apartments, etc. next to these Metrolink stations. That is where the money is to be made.

In fact the developer would probably want to do everything in their power to encourage the Metrolink to come to this area. After all if it doesn't this land is relatively worthless, it is only worth big money with the presence of ML.

Also keep in mind that in the past with big developments like this the government has actually required the developers help pay for stations, etc. along the line. For instance this was the case for Luas extension south of Sandyford. The developers paid the government a fixed amount for each unit they built near the line.

This would all help make such an extension quiet affordable.

riddlinrussell

I'd hope they came up with a better way to quantify payment values for metrolink than that method. Maybe a fairly steep payment based on plot size, that would thus incentivise maximising units per plot to get value back, rather than per unit.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121405109#Comment_121405109

Well a developer is already incentivsed to build as many units in a given plot of land anyway. The more units you can squeeze into a plot profitably, the more money you can make on the purchase price of that land.

That is why developers always put in planning applications for taller buildings then they know planners will allow.

Developers asking for high density is almost never the issue, NIMBY neighbours and what planners will allow are usually the constraint.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399803#Comment_121399803

Every tunnel below the water table has leaks. What's that got to do with our water infrastructure exactly?

KrisW1001

I imagine the point was that the tunnel engineers had predicted a certain amount of water in the soil above, but due to the very high number of damaged water mains leaking into the ground, the amount was much higher than predicted.

But yes, all tunnels leak, by design...it's safer to give the water a controlled path through the structure rather than have it find its own way, with possibly catastrophic results.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121416117#Comment_121416117

I recall the Irish Times claiming that the Dublin Port Tunnel - a few weeks before opening - would have to be never opened because it leaked. Demonstrates the exrtremely low levels of intelligence and general unworldly nature of Irish journalists. But nothing beats the Sunday Business Post calling the Luas Green Line the worst train in the world 'according to an unnamed rail expert' because it did not have toilets and a bar car.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121416117#Comment_121416117

I remember a boss of mine telling me if some piece of equipment was likely to get wet then either make it absolutely waterproof or leave a drain hole at the bottom to let the water out.

I would imagine the same applies to tunnels - expect to pump it out.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121402123#Comment_121402123

No way. Firstly for the people travelling from the southside, I doubt they will change at Charlemount if their ultimate destination is on the southside. Working on Harcourt Street? Stay on the LUAS. If going to SSG or Dawson Street I’d say you’d still be better off staying on the LUAS. There will be some question once you get to College Green. It may be useful to switch to Metrolink and get off at Tara. I reckon there’ll be YouTube videos of people testing that out…

Same from the Northside Green Line.

Moreover, having a tram line in the city opens up more possibilities for new lines down the line. Why not put one up Dame Street that splices off the existing one and could allow you to get from OCS to Christchurch or SSG to Christchurch on shorter trams?

spillit67

Had a look at some YT videos and it is c. 6.5 mins from Charlemount to SSG and 9 mins to Dawson at relatively quiet times. Maybe add two mins at peak times.

Switching at Charlemount will vary in times you would think. Probably vary from 3-6 mins at peak depending on luck and then say another 2 mins to SSG (with increased time exiting the station vs. a LUAS).

When you consider the jigs and reels of changing, I can see only people who want to be over the other side of SSG (say walking to Merrion Square) bothering to switch.

Westmoreland Street is 14 mins so absolutely worth switching to Metrolink and going by Tara.

Be interesting to see how far north up the line people from the southside go from Charlemount. I can see maybe 1 in 3 changing to Metrolink at peak? You’ll also have people who would get on at say Harcourt heading back to the Northside that will just take Metrolink.

Hard to know on the northside heading the other way.

All in all, it should free up a lot of capacity on the LUAS Green Line within the city centre. The issue will remain as it goes further south from Charlemount in the evening.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121420341#Comment_121420341

It's just an idea. It'll never happen.

The Luas is slow as **** in the city center so you're better off changing to Metro.

spillit67

Nope. I just pointed out the times.

You are likely better if you go beyond 2/3 stops. It will remain a busy transit form.

plodder

Interesting given the week we've just had, that one of the few international showcases for Dublin city (the Dublin Marathon) is under threat. Not sure how serious it really is, but lots of people are asking how do other city centres manage it. The answer is obviously with an underground public transport network. Even the single line of Metro link would take a lot of pressure off public transport on the one day a year widespread street closures are needed, and might even create scope for more public events on the city centre streets.

Podge_irl

Plenty of cities without an Underground host marathons as well. Metrolink will help, but people need to just accept the reality of inconveniences that come from living in a city that will have events that are not always centred on them. Its a few hours on a Bank Holiday Sunday morning - plan around it.

Mr_Messy

Metrolink will cost anywhere from €12billion to €22billion according to reports. I can't see it being built, particularly with a recession being overdue.

Things that can be done now:

• You could easily cut the journey times of Dublin Airpot to City Centre by investing in Passport Control. More border guards, passportless CTA travel for UK-Ireland passengers. Saving 10min queing at Passport control is the same 10mins that would be saved on a billion euro metro.
• Send more busses down the Port Tunnel. Increase the toll on car journeys. Look at the timetables of Swords Express, 142, 33X, 41X - it is vastly underutilised.

Things we should build:

• Extend the Green Luas Line to the airport
• Build a spur off the Dart line to the airport and on to Swords.

Zebra3

First day of Q2?

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435657#Comment_121435657

The current cost estimates are 7.15 to 12.26bn euro. No reason yet to believe they're going to go 100% over the top end of their Budget.

If you read through the thread, you will see why Luas to Airport is inappropriate and misses the main function of the project (to connect Swords to the city and open up more green+brownfield sites for development)

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435930#Comment_121435930

Amen to that. And can we stop the ‘busses’ nonsense? The plural of ‘Bus’ is ‘Buses’.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435657#Comment_121435657

More passport control guards instead of Metro....😂😂😂😂😂😂

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121427348#Comment_121427348

I hear you, but this is coming from the National Transport Authority, not a bunch of old folks needing to get to mass, which was the long stated reason why the marathon used to be held on the Monday. It's just a small element of the reason why the lack of a decent, fast underground public transport system, degrades life in a multitude of small ways, which are mostly imperceptible to people unless they have lived in other cities abroad, because this is the way it's always been. And the way out of it, is that as soon as you can afford to do it, you buy a car for commuting.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121436207#Comment_121436207

It is "busses" in American English. I've caught my spell checker trying to change it to busses in the past.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121436744#Comment_121436744

Yeah, but its the bunch of old folks needing to get to mass who are complaining to the NTA I'm sure! I don't really understand why a bank holiday Monday would require less transport than a Sunday either tbh.

I think a metro would obviously help a bit - however it won't do much for the traffic closures and much of the area it serves wouldn't even be impacted. But I think the complaints around the Dublin Marathon are mostly just people moaning cause they love a good moan.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435657#Comment_121435657

This is a perfect example of the problem with this entire thread, people who don't understand what the purpose of Metrolink is and that there simply is no alternative to it.

Metrolink is NOT about linking to the airport, the primary purpose of Metrolink is to link Swords to the city. Swords the 5th largest Urban area in Ireland (and well on the way to 4th) and obviously a major commuter town of Dublin.

Metrolink is primarily about bringing the people of Swords quickly and easily to the city.

It will also allow Metrolink to be extended North of Swords where you could build dense commuter towns around Metro stops, where you could house the next 100,000 people.

It is also about creating a sold North-South transport axis, taking the strain off the Luas Green line and connecting up all the major Luas and DART+ lines to create a proper network effect.

Stopping at the Airport is WAY down the list of the purposes of Metrolink, it is nice that it will stop at the airport, it certainly makes sense to do that, but it certainly isn't the main purpose of Metrolink.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437095#Comment_121437095

Totally correct. It is remarkable how many don't grasp that. Over one hundred years ago the Metropolitan Railway and the Charing Cross Euston and Hampstead Railway built railways into green fields, and made money out of developing suburbs around their stations. Dublin is well beyond the point where infrastructure needs to be put in place before development and not afterwards.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121404104#Comment_121404104

I see your point, but that land has good road access & proximity to M1 also.

So its far from worthless as residential development land, even if metrolink never sees the light of day.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437024#Comment_121437024

No, it's buses in America as well.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/plural-of-bus

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121420743#Comment_121420743

Why would people on the Green Luas change at Charlemont to MetroLink, if they are going to Stephens Green/Dawson/Westmoreland?

Its only 4 or 5 mins to Dawson from Charlemont on the Luas, so it would take longer on Metrolink.

Same if you were heading to Merrion Square, in your example.

You would stay on the LUAS and be at Dawson in 5. Metrolink would be slower.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437333#Comment_121437333

Interesting the Cambridge Dictionary says it is American English:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/busses

And the Collins Dictionary too:

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/busses

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437326#Comment_121437326

The M1 is irrelevant if all that traffic ends up trying to squeeze into the Swords Road. The corridor is already well over capacity and there is no way you could build homes for another 100,000 people there and have them try and drive in.

The Port Tunnel is also irrelevant given the high toll charge and it dumping people into the already overcapacity quays.

Of course you can build some extra homes, but nowhere near the numbers that ML will enable.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437287#Comment_121437287

Yep, look at Tokyo, the private rail company owns all the land where they build rail stations. Almost all the stations have massive shopping centers and apartment/office buildings built directly above the stations.

It actually makes the railway company there highly profitable and drives them to want to expand the rail network to more and more locations as easch new line and station makes them lots of money.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437524#Comment_121437524

Not irrelavant though, because you can still build homes there, whether they get tail backs on the M1 or not.

But it isnt optimised without a rail link. Thats the difference.

My concern is that the govt have a habit of not choosing the optimal option and I predict there will be homes built there way before ML is built.

(if it ever is built)