Rugby world cup post mortem

LuckyLloyd

How we structure our contracts and how much flexibility and bandwidth a coach is given to be "developmental" in a 6 Nations post world cup are core questions much discussed over the years. Trying to win the Six Nations every year is a core objective, and it deprioritises being the very best we can be at a World Cup as a result. That's a trade off everyone has been willing to make up until now, and I imagine it continues.

In an ideal world we would not select players like POM and Aki in February, and give the game time elsewhere. And if the deselected players continue to perform at provincial level and look set to extend their careers beyond what was anticipated we could always work them back into the squad later in the cycle.

But we will not do this, we will roll out a very similar group in February, that's the structure.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244680#Comment_121244680

There is a lot of talk about how we should have changed one or two things.

The fact is that the reason we are were we are is multifactorial.

There are many things to consider or would need to change for one thing to change.

For a coach to have found someone they trusted to replace Sexton for instance, many things would have had to have been considered, contracts, success in the 6 nations, Tests etc.

It all has an impact. There is no right or wrong way to proceed that I can see.

Sure you can have opinions but that is all they are, we aren't the ones at the coalface faced with all the factors.

riddles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244550#Comment_121244550

The same thing was said about Joe Schmidt

Facthunt

I’m going to get it off my chest …. But did anyone else think during the game that James Lowe just didn’t play with any conviction! Against his native New Zealand he, in my opinion, was a very weak link! The Kiwi in him coming out! They seemed to target him a lot and he made some uncharacteristic mistakes and calls!! A great player throughout the campaign but this game ….. I just didn’t feel he wore the green jersey with pride!! Only my opinion……..

hahashake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121242874#Comment_121242874

Just touching on this analysis again after some thought. Sam Cane is not a new face on the world stage. His debut start for NZ was against Ireland in 2012, where he scored 2 tries in a 60-0 drubbing. He has won a world cup (albeit playing a bit part). He won NZ player of the year in 2020. Then an injury and a relatively poor run of results for NZ, and suddenly he is mediocre in some peoples eyes. The same could be said about a lot of the NZ players who have been around for a while.

I have no idea how much the perception of the All Blacks players being inferior to their Irish counterparts played into the minds of the Irish camp, or if it was extra motivation for NZ. But Cane was inarguably one of the best 3 players on the field on Saturday, and I doubt many outside of NZ would have seen that coming.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244403#Comment_121244403

We do have a better team than New Zealand. The pundits on VM who get paid to give their opinions said we had the better team. The bookies including the New Zealand bookmakers made us favourites. We had the better team but we bottled it due to unforced errors and the manager failing to react to it quickly enough. We bottled it.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244344#Comment_121244344

I did. Sexton should have been off around the hour mark. Arguably should have been gone 4 years ago.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244893#Comment_121244893

Read again. That wasn't the question.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244875#Comment_121244875

You don't know what 'bottling' means here.

We dealt with the game and mounted a fierce challenge in the second half just missing out by a score in the end.

That was not a bottle and not remotely like one either.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244666#Comment_121244666

Crowley and Byrne’s development has been stunted by Sexton hanging around long past his sell by date. Unfair to judge them when they weren’t given the opportunities to bed themselves into the role, make mistakes and learn from it. Sexton was given loads of time and made loads of mistakes and became a very good out half but he should have been gone years ago. Saturday night the failure to move him on and the mistake of relying on him too much even within the game itself when he played the full 80 minutes while out on his feet; came home to roost.

ScissorPaperRock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244917#Comment_121244917

I think you'll find you're very much in the minority in that opinion on Sexton.

OldRio

I saw no arrogance, but you know that don't you?

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244918#Comment_121244918

....

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244917#Comment_121244917

You referenced VM pundits as the oracle in another post. None of them were saying this about Sexton prior to the WC. In fact they were saying he was critical to our success and should be protected, most if not all paid pundits were saying the same.

You are just picking on an easy hindsight criticism

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244396#Comment_121244396

Porter needed to read the room. If Barnes was penalising him for wheeling the scrum then he needed to stop doing it. Instead he repeated it another two times after the first call. Did we have a replacement for him? Those penalties added to the line out problems from the South Africa match recurring were crucial.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244841#Comment_121244841

I think he has a tendency to not execute or go off plan under pressure. He ran a few that absolutely should have been kicks. Of the NZ imports, i’d say JGP also had a below average game. Aki was one of the best players on the field from either side.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244942#Comment_121244942

Sexton’s form for a 38 year old remained good but not that good that he was irreplaceable, in my view he should have been moved out over the last few years and other players brought in. Sexton could maybe have been a good experienced back up to come in like Conor Murray at scrum half. Crowley has looked good when I’ve seen him, he should have been number 1 out half with Sexton in support I reckon.

In the game v NZ Sexton’s legs were gone towards the end of the game. Would you have left him on for the full 80 minutes? Instead bringing him in fresh for the last 15 to 20 minutes could have worked but it seemed Sexton’s position was untouchable. Big mistake.

Why didn’t they bring Crowley on for the last 15 or 20 minutes when Sexton’s legs were gone? Was it because it was his last hurrah and they were going to stick with him until the end for the one last time? He’s been a great player but he’s been elevated onto a pedestal and untouchable for far too long and the price was paid for that on Saturday night.

He’s gone now, I hope he doesn’t change his mind and come out of retirement. The damage done for this Works Cup though.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244928#Comment_121244928

Of course. Sexton has been untouchable and above criticism for years. When he went to France but wasn’t outcast like players like Zebo were for example; that said it all.

Sexton the untouchable, above criticism as if he was the greatest rugby player ever.

He wasn’t and that folly came home to roost and the insular nature of Irish rugby will publicly at any rate never concede that. They conceded the game v NZ on Saturday night though and that was a factor in that concession.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244259#Comment_121244259

The SH pushed for something which would kill the 6 nations so knew it would never work. Rugby would die in Ireland/Wales/SCotland/Italy without the 6 nations so why would any of them for it?

The SH wanted the 20 min red card and implemented it when nobody else did, then complained for years about it.

The World Cup is not a level playing field, it will only be that if everyone is at the same stage of the season.

cannco253

One thing I’ll say is having been at both QFs in Paris , the venue is an unbelievable cauldron. Nothing on tv replicates this. Don’t underestimate how nervous the kiwi’s were , I’ve never seen them so quiet and the last few minutes shredded everyone’s nerves, there was nothing in it.

Ifs and buts mean little now , Ireland (and France) played and lost. The disappointment in the stadium and around town on both nights was palpable. Both sets of teams and fans were expecting a win. Our French amis cheered us on and we did likewise.

fair play to NZ/SA for grinding out the wins, it was big game experience in the end that stood to both imho.

Maybe we need to include Australia when talk of the SH dominance is mentioned? There are lessons to be learned for everyone

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244898#Comment_121244898

I answered your question, you just don’t like the answer.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245118#Comment_121245118

No, you said what you would have done 4 years ago.

I asked you what would be the commentary on Sexton be this morning if he had marshalled the team to a one point victory on Saturday via that last phase. Had the referee, as you would normally expect, have given a penalty for a no release to the team going forward and we had mauled the lineout over as we had been doing in the game?

I can guarantee you those making easy criticisms like yourself would be silent and laughed out of the room if you opened your mouth TBH.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244279#Comment_121244279

Horsesh1t

France would love a Grand Slam

Lucy8080

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244944#Comment_121244944

100%. It's a bit of a lottery how one ref to another calls the scrum. Barnes clearly explained the picture he was seeing and why he pinged Porter. Doesn't matter what anyone thinks of the call , right or wrong, you have to play to the ref.

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244146#Comment_121244146

If we won the grand slam in 2024 going to paris & twickenham people will very quickly forgot about the NZ game.

there’s only going to be one winner of this World Cup so one of South Africa or NZ are still going to be seen as failures.

6 Nations is one of the biggest tournament’s in the world of any sport & not easy to win.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244918#Comment_121244918

Mod: This poster is serving a two week rugby forum ban, no need to respond to this.

Lucy8080

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245108#Comment_121245108

With the Hosts and the Irish going out , I reckon the economic boost the tourney gives to businesses will take quite a bit of hit.

mascher8933

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245048#Comment_121245048

When he went to France he was World Class and there was no real alternative to him. Zebo on the otherhand was not World Class and there were plenty of options.

There still is a big drop off to the next 10 in line.

Hopefully Prendergast gets Leinster game time this year and next year can make the step up because Ireland will struggle with either Byrne or Crowley

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245139#Comment_121245139

It’s a silly question. It didn’t happen. What I saw was Sexton out on his feet and they left him there for the full 80 minutes. Fresher legs at out half at that point could have made a difference but we’ll never know because the manager didn’t introduce the fresh legs in that department.

By the way what was the last call from the ref? Did he say Ireland weren’t releasing. It felt like Ireland ran out of gas and they weren’t going to score and the whistle ended it because the momentum wasn’t there and it was too slow recycling possession?

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245153#Comment_121245153

Unfortunately yes you do have to play to the ref. I think it was Horgan that was saying we had control of the scrum, there was no need for Porter to wheel it. He made the mistake the first time but didn’t learn from it and repeated it?

Very annoying and the management team needed to step in and replace him if he was having a nightmare with it.