Rugby world cup post mortem

Raoul Duke III

As someone who went to all the group games and thoroughly enjoyed their time in France, meeting great people and having some fantastic experiences, remember that is what sport is all about. It's supposed to be a diversion from the quotidian grind of life - not something that defines your very existence.

The team played brilliantly and were just outdone in a 50/50 game. Remember the good stuff!

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121243937#Comment_121243937

I didn’t say that they didn’t deserve to win. They did and Ireland didn’t because as the guys on the VM panel said New Zealand brought their A game and Ireland didn’t. Ireland rarely have a better team than New Zealand, this time they did but for some reason and this happened against South Africa as well their line out malfunctioned and on top of that the scrum on New Zealand put ins malfunctioned.

That’s horrendous. To come to a tournament with the best chance ever but to fail to deal with those issues as they arose. New Zealand, South Africa etc they have a chance in nearly every World Cup to win it, this was Ireland’s chance and they blew it through unforced errors and the management failing to deal with it in game.

The tournament goes on Ireland are out.

Widdensushi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244119#Comment_121244119

2 seems high to me.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244175#Comment_121244175

Agree with this. We lost a game.

What we didn't lose was the talent coming through, the talent with years left to play, the structures and systems we have put in place to bring a minority sport here up to the world levels it is at.

Let me have all the above before I would take what Eng, Wales or Scot face in the years ahead.

Welsh rugby, despite going as far as we did in this tournament is by all accounts in a horrible place, so too are there problems looming in English rugby and the cracks have already undermined Scotland.

Unwarranted negativity can really do damage and it is important to take stock of where we really are. It was one game.

bucketybuck

It's a good job they owe us nothing, because that is what they delivered.

Those that embrace failure sicken my hole to be honest, they revel in it, proud to get a pat on the back for being good losers.

Ireland underperformed when it mattered. And it will keep happening as long as that sort of culture is tolerated.

Regardless, Ireland need to do what they needed to do every other time this happened, stop focusing on the micky mouse cups and start building for the big boys trophy. Imagine if one of the out half's had been given big 6 nations games to develop in? But no, had to be Sexton starting all the time.

They won't do it though. It will be exactly the same next time because people are too craven to call this result what it really was.

CONSI

Looking back at the last few weeks/months just highlights that again our strength in depth has been challenged.

Sexton should have been off in the last 20 minutes, he had nothing left to give and was a static target for NZ, who could focus their defence on the 12/13 channel, he wasnt even able to loop areound to the backline became static.

The management didnt seem to have faith in Crowley for some reason, who would have been coming into this world cup full of confidence after a successful year at Munster. JGP seemed a little like a rabbit in headlights, terrible decision making, I'll give him credit, a good snipe for the try, but some of his passing was poor. JVDF isnt the player he was 12 months ago, i dont think I remember him winning a breakdown almost all tournament, and for a 7 thats unbelievable.

The lineout was terrible all tournament, now whether thats down to chopping and changing hookers I dont know but you dont win games without a functioning set piece. Porter was getting pinged in the scrums and yet we had no-one to bring one, we needed to change the picture for Barnes as Porter was an easy target at scrum time.

Hansen wasnt fully fit, again was it a mistake to bring Earls with his injury profile, along with Henshaw, left us with limited cover in the backs. To be fair to Jimmy O'Brien, he did well when he came on.

There is a rebuild needed now, lots of u20's showing promise, lots of young lads at Munster/Leinster and Ulster.

6 nations coming up will be a big opportunity to freshen the team.

Sexton/Earls already gone, Healy will be gone, O'Mahony is 34, Kilcoyne 34, Murray 34, Aki 33...lots of the squad 30/31...long 4 year cycle ahead to the next world cup and hopefully some new faces to come in

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244197#Comment_121244197

if you think the irish rugby players embrace failure then im not sure what you have been watching at international and provincial level for the last decade. Its fine margins unfortunately.

Sexton at 38 is still streets ahead of anyone else at 10, do you think a different outhalf would have won us that game?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244197#Comment_121244197

So how do you do it buckety?

We played 17 games with a variety of options using the players available. We won 17. 4 of them at the WC (in some style)

How would you have prepped?

ScissorPaperRock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244197#Comment_121244197

Nobody is calling it a success, but some people (fairly reasonably, I would say) don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Some people also have the ability to recognise the achievements of the past couple of years, and the effort involved to raise the game in Ireland to these levels. For others, it's black and white, all or nothing.

I don't get the feeling anyone is looking for 'a pat on the back for being good losers'. I feel bitter, to be honest. The sight of Ioane taunting us in the crowd at the end of the game is etched in my mind.

But some still value everything that has been achieved, the effort put in, and recognise that we were one try-saving tackle away from being on the other side of the narrative this week.

There's nuance, it's just about whether you can/want to see it or not. Otherwise, Ireland and France are crap teams, and England and Argentina are among the titans of the sport.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244227#Comment_121244227

So on one hand it is fine margins, but at the same time replacing a misfiring and drained Sexton would not have made any difference.

Yes, I think that if Ireland had developed an alternative to Sexton that could have come on in the 2nd half then Ireland may have won that game. I think that had they given Crowley chances in the 6 nations he might have been ready to come in and make that difference.

I mean, is it fine margins or is it not?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244216#Comment_121244216

They are all the questions that should be asked and honest answers sought. I don't know the answers to them all.

On the Sexton one, I think they were all tired. But I don't know if Crowley would have been able to marshal that final phase and it all might have have been over sooner.

I think Sexton wanted a penalty there, they never seemed to seriously look for a line break and sprint to the line. I was screaming at Barnes to put his arm out several times as NZ infringed and then he ignored the clear no release at the end. Personal spite at Sexton? Who knows, you had a similar incident in the Fra v SA game, no penalty for a clear infringement in the ruck.

I know the Sexton question wouldn't be being asked today had we got a penalty and mauled the lineout over in the corner.

Such is life.

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244070#Comment_121244070

There are a lot of inaccuracies in the above post. The SH have been pushing for an integrated global calendar, with opposition within the NH Unions, Scotland in particular. Indeed, the World Cup was largely a SH idea and was opposed by Northern Unions, including Ireland.

Moreover, most of the positive rule changes in the last two decades have been ideated and implemented in the South. The game is faster, more dynamic and more entertaining than it was 30 years ago in large part because of the willingness of the Southern Unions to experiment and embrace change.

It is impossible to argue the Six Nations as the pinnacle of the sport in terms of quality of play; and while the Southern teams largely do try to win games every autumn, it is usually at the end of their season and it is definitely not their best effort. Those victories are nice, but the NH is struggling to beat them on a level playing field when it matters. The NH is soon to be one in ten from world cups, that is the reality of where the sport is played to the highest level.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244216#Comment_121244216

The one I feel sorry for is Aki. I didn’t realise he is 31. He was brilliant and he did perform well against NZ as well.

Sexton should have been gone years ago. It annoys me the way he has been treated differently than others as if he was rugby’s answer to Lio Messi or something. He was put on a pedestal and left on it way too long. I’m glad he’s finally gone.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244132#Comment_121244132

Totally agree. Six nations, yawn... we have won it, won the grand slams. The rwc is all I care about at this stage...

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244242#Comment_121244242

But Ireland aren't a crap team, they were the best team in the world and with a lot of things in their favour. And they achieved nothing.

The first step to changing that is recognising what happened, yet everywhere I look I see people going on about fine margins, being unlucky and whinging about the draw.

Its a losers mentality and it is a killer, and the first step to changing is rejecting that mentality. Stop being specialists in failure and start demanding better.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244146#Comment_121244146

We play France away and England. Will likely finish it second or third given the fixtures, some chance of winning it outright obviously...

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244263#Comment_121244263

They were one of the best and still are.

There are fine margins and it is in who is the best on a given day at the top.

It really is no more complicated than that.

CONSI

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244271#Comment_121244271

What does a 6 nations win mean now, France wont care about a 6 nations after this world cup...this is the opportunity to blood new players...the IRFU are in a healthy financial position, not like we need the prize money..

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244261#Comment_121244261

Sexton earned himself a lot of rope, but these people saying he was the best option and Crowley could not have replaced him, well, what exactly did Sexton do that Crowley could not?

They are still judging it on what he could have done or would have done in his prime, but lets face it, Sexton was nothing special in this tournament and by the end was actively a problem.

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244190#Comment_121244190

Those reverses and regressions in England and Wales (and Australia) hurt Irish rugby as well though. This is a small sport, and it is only really thriving in four nations at present (and the SA and NZ club games have issues). England and Wales and Scotland struggling makes it easier for us every spring, but it isn't helping us to be better prepared every four years, and it lowers the long term outlook for everyone. Sure, maybe we can be the great survivors of professional rugby and eventually sail into a semi final or more as the game falls to bits in nations 5 - 10. But I think the real takeaway from this world cup cycle as a whole is that the game needs to start thinking outside of the box in terms of how to grow the sport.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244231#Comment_121244231

They have made great strides and as you say above we’re in far better nick than most others in the Northern Hemisphere particularly. The World Cup though is the pinnacle and to get to the next level there, it’s at the World Cup that they want to be hitting the number 1 ranking. They weren’t prepared and didn’t have an answer for the line out and scrum problems when they arose and they left Sexton in situ too long.

Poor in game management was a big part in what let them down. Farrell has done brilliant but I wonder will England offer him the job which could work well for us if we get O’Gara instead who could be an upgrade.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244290#Comment_121244290

I agree. World Rugby have many issues to deal with. I hope the appetite is there.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244275#Comment_121244275

And yet if you point out that Ireland underperformed relative to their recent form, and that if they had just played to their normal level they would have won, lads like you don't like the implication of that.

Murph85

Here is the issue now. Feels like a lot of us couldn't care less about the size nations , the world cup is where its at. Maybe its a healthy attitude shift. The head coach could adopt a similar mentality. But there is still no guarantee, that you then get past a qf of the rwc. You are still going to be in coin flip games. I believe I'm correct in saying that rugby are the sa and nz national sports ? If that's the case , there is the biggest unaddressable issue.

I think we have taken big strides in confidence and results. They are the thoroughbreds of the rugby world as its their national sport, they have the player pool, belief, mental strength etc.... it just becomes a self fulfilling prophecy..

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244294#Comment_121244294

There's could's and might's in all that too.

Would you agree that had that final phase paid off and we scored the match winning 5 marshalled by Sexton that the questions would be somewhat different today?

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244286#Comment_121244286

He was a fine player but not that good that he should still have been the out half in this World Cup at the age of 38. He should have been gone years ago. Even in that last game they left him on for the full 80 minutes even though he was out on his feet as if to say we couldn’t take him off at that stage. We really had to take him off he had nothing left. The manager to blame for that.

CONSI

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244286#Comment_121244286

Yeah Sextons inability to run in the last 20 mins allowed NZ focus their defense on the 12/13 channel, with no loop around and outlet to get the ball wide it made for an easy defensive plan. The annoying thing is despite all that we had a chance but didnt trust the skillset, we had a 3-1 here on 81mins, keenan should have got it, that draws in jordan and lowe and i think o'brien have a chance, barret is struggling to cover across

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244305#Comment_121244305

We didn't perform in one game. That's what happened.

It's not the end of times like some are saying. It is time to ask the questions and answer them honestly but most of all, reasonably. Which is NOT what some are doing.

I think if there is one thing the rugby system does well here is ask questions of what we are doing and coming up with answers that allow us to go forward not debilitate us. That is why we were able to win 17 games on the trot. We didn't get there by asking questions unreasonably or which only have a negative answer. Nor from kneejerk reactions to the bad things that happened.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244321#Comment_121244321

Was it not Lowe who threw the ball slightly behind and high for him allowing the time for the cover to get there? Haven't watched that phase closely again so could be wrong.