Rugby world cup post mortem

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244313#Comment_121244313

The final phase? They were out on their feet. Sexton in particular was done. Crowley should have been there for that final fling because at least he would have had fresh legs. Aki was still potent, they needed to get it to him. Sexton was like a traffic cone. He shouldn’t have been there.

riddles

Sexton is a bit like Roy Keane at United but united had a manager that realised his number was up. If he took the points at the start and a kickable penalty it would have put NZ on the back foot, something that didn't happen. That is on him - it can be sliced in many other ways but that is what it boils down to. Two Champions cups lost by a bulk of that team. When to move on from players is the challenge that has not yet been mastered.

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244263#Comment_121244263

I think this is spot on, personally. There really should be no excuses here. 17 wins in a row, relatively healthy team for this stage of the tournament, facing opponents we had beaten 5 out of the past 8, who are a flawed version of former All Black sides and bringing huge amounts of momentum following excellent performances / results against South Africa and Scotland. If not now, when?

Executing poorly ("poor" defined as to a lower standard than we had over the past year, or in the tournament to date) in THE critical game is classic Ireland Rugby. Conversely, New Zealand rocking up and finding a way to be more competitive at the breakdown than they had been in years is who they are as a rugby nation. Shrugging the shoulders and saying 'we'll get them next time' rings very hollow. And sure, it's done now so what's the point in crying? But trying to actually win a World Cup, even in a sport only played at a high level by ~10 teams, is as much a mental and spiritual test as it is a physical one. The standards and expectations need to be high. If it's okay to lose once you gave it a go, THAT becomes your reality.

I find the thoughts of Six Nations games in February very hollow and unappealing this morning. You need to believe it can lead somewhere when it really matters, or at least I do.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244338#Comment_121244338

You didn't answer the question.

CONSI

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244336#Comment_121244336

no we took it into contact

yourdeadwright

As predicted pre tournament they bottled it when the pressure came

Aul Johnny had his most important penalty kick of his career & missed a pretty handy one at that ,

In the end of the day mentally they just couldn't do it , We just always fail to perform & that is the essence of bottle

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244321#Comment_121244321

That's a very difficult image to look at.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244324#Comment_121244324

We didn’t perform in some aspects like the line out particularly against South Africa either. We won that game but I think it was a game that they felt they should have won. There were lessons from the South Africa game but for some reason they weren’t picked up on which is baffling. That’s poor management.

Plenty to build on but the reason we didn’t go further this time was down to self inflicted errors and poor managerial decisions to rectify them.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244324#Comment_121244324

God, such an attitude. "Its just one game, not the end of times".

Except it was the end, the end of the line for Ireland in the WC yet again, and that one game was the one damn game that mattered.

I would trade every single one of those 17 games for a victory when it actually matters, but thats just me I guess. I don't much like moral victories.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244343#Comment_121244343

In competitions from the soccer world cup, to the FAI cup from the Ryder Cup to the GAA All Ireland, teams and supporters have to pick themselves up and go again.

Irish rugby will too.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244356#Comment_121244356

Another poster who has no answers as to how they would do it.

Probably because holes could be picked in your strategy too.

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244344#Comment_121244344

Yeah but this is elite sport. It is about achieving the result, in the end. Sexton was not operating close to his maximal capability when we really needed it, those are the tough calls in game.

And absolutely, you have to think about the process and not be completely results orientated. But a broader wider view of the scope of the defeat in a historical context is about how Irish rugby finds ways to feck it up. It's hard to argue Sexton should have been on the pitch at the end given his actual play in those moments. But this comes back to the world cup cycle as a whole, and our failure to attain comfort with other solutions at 10. We got the miracle runout - a healthy 38 year old who survived all 5 pool matches! But we still needed something else for 15 minutes, and we never developed it. You may find that analysis harsh, but it is what it is in the end.

nonyabidness23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244137#Comment_121244137

Many have very very low expectations of a great team then, i don't see how that could be anything but a failure.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244175#Comment_121244175

Correct me if I'm wrong but my perception of the difficulties in the line out in both SA and NZ games was that early days these teams were encroaching, not keeping the required separation. The refs let them away with this for a while and was enough to unsettle us from then on.

As for Porter and the scrum penalties, heard Shane Byrnes analysis that Porter was not a fault - he was simply overpowering his opposite number and that Barnes didn't care for this.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244175#Comment_121244175

We don't have a better team than New Zealand. If all 30 players were free agents for one year next year, that All Blacks team gets picked up faster and on higher salaries in the open market than the Irish team. Some of our world class players struggle when under pressure against top quality opposition, Josh Van Der Flier is world player of the year and failed to have any impact moments in the biggest game of his life. The best player in the world would be able to find a way to make game changing impact plays when its needed the most. Cane, who was lambasted on this forum solidly outplayed him. Doris was utterly and absolutely outclassed by Savea. It was the same with Frizell and O'Mahony. The pack as a whole lost collisions all night long. Exactly the same against South Africa, where we somehow found a way to win and it was even the same in the last 20 minutes vs Samoa, where we were lucky to win and it was the same in the second half of Leinster vs La Rochelle. This core group of the Irish pack struggle to match the power game of elite athletes. We also massively lack pace in our backs, we don't have any players who can go 80 metres down the pitch like Jordan. We have huge cohesiveness and skill in our backline but we can't deliver those gut punching breaks that the other teams in the top 4 can because we lack truly elite athletes.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244368#Comment_121244368

You actually think I am going to play that game with one of the sites most notorious contrarians?

Sure buddy, bear with me as I draw up a 120 point plan for you to dissect.

Ash.J.Williams

England will win the rwc

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244374#Comment_121244374

No, not harsh and it is reasonably expressed.

I would argue about us 'finding ways to **** it up'. That is harsh and unwarranted.

Had I been a coach going into that second half and faced with what we had to do, it would have come down to who I had faith in. And you cannot take on board somebody else's faith, you have to go with what you as a coach believe. I don't think Farrell will shirk the responsibility and the buck will stop with him.

I saw attempts to find a second choice right throughout the cycle too. It didn't happen and now we have to find one.

ScissorPaperRock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244405#Comment_121244405

It all depends on what's happening at the provinces as well. If these are the guys starting and playing the big matches at provincial level, it's hard for younger players to build the required experience and get prepared for test rugby.

With 4 professional teams, it won't be as easy for Ireland to make a quick transition.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244404#Comment_121244404

😁😁 oh dear. I think we have our answer there. Cheers.

Sleepy

It was definitely a game of tight margins: another 10 minutes on the clock, a bounce of a ball here or an extra few inches made there and Ireland would be in a semi-final. Hell, a better timed seeding of the groups and the two brilliant games we saw this weekend would have been the semis. That this abysmal English team are the only NH team still in the tournament (and only until their inevitable demolishing by SA next Saturday) shows just how farcical the draw was.

I make no claim to be any kind of expert and have never played the game competitively myself but one question I would ask is: when did we last see this Irish team play at anything near 100% of their potential? We scraped past South Africa in a game where we made a hell of a lot of mistakes and were let off by their poor kicking that day and none of the other teams we met in the group stages were strong enough to require the team to perform at anything like their best to beat them comfortably. What we came up against on Saturday was an All-Black team who rose to the occasion to play the best rugby they have in a couple of years while we were playing at 60-70% of our potential... There's an argument that over this historic run we've gotten too used to being able to win without playing at our best and a clinical New Zealand did their homework and effectively targeted all the right things to stop us from getting there.

ulsteru20s

I think we are going a bit crazy with the post mortem. NZ did not out power us. If anything they learned to kick a lot more and de emphasize power.

There is only one major mistake i think. Crowley should have been on at 65 and lets the chips fall from that decision where they may. Sexton was out on his feet and crowley is exactly the kind of 10 who makes things happen against tiring legs.

Other than that… i prefer baird to mccarthy. I thought we made odd choices and should have kicked ALOT more. But those are minor compared to the sexton/crowley call.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244396#Comment_121244396

Shane Byrne is talking through his hoop I'm afraid. Porter has been scrummaging illegally all tournament and Barnes was wise to it. Porter didn't adapt after the 1st penalty and we paid the price. Can't win a knockout game without a functioning set piece and our scrum and lineout misfired.

conquestscarer

All the critisms of not producing a back up 10 is fair enough, but for 3 out of the 4 years Carbery was cemented into that position. I'm a lot more critical at the lack of loosehead prop back up at this point in time. Unfortunately Kilcoyne wasn't good enough at this stage of his career to be the backup loosehead, if we had the equivalent to Bealham at Loosehead we could have taken him off but instead he had to go the full 75. I'd like to see Farrell be less conservative with his selections at this upcoming 6 nations.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121242960#Comment_121242960

Trolling.

roverjoyce

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244550#Comment_121244550

His hands are tied with central contracts to have massive changes

There should be no central contracts 2 years after the world cup,

Let any player go for 2 years and get their money and play in different countries, and let them be available for selection

It really is development until after the lions so what is there to lose, like why was POM given a central contract up to end of 2024

conquestscarer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244622#Comment_121244622

I don't think it needs massive changes, implementing players like Casey and McCarthy a bit more would probably cut it. There was no reason for McCarthy not to be involved against Tonga for example, could have helped keep the other 3 second rows fresh.

CONSI

Looking ahead, starting 15 for the 6 nations v France....

15 - Keenan

14 - Nash / O'Brien / Balacoune

13 - Ringrose

12 - Aki (with Hume on the bench)

11 - Hansen

10 - Crowley

9 - Casey (JGP on bench)

8 - Dorris (Coombes on bench)

7 - VDF (Hodnett on bench)

6 - ???

5 - Beirne

4 - Ryan

3 - Furlong (we need to get some props)

2 - Sheehan

1 - Porter (We need some props)

Bench - Hodnett/Coombes / O'Brien or Nash / JGP / Kelleher / backup 10 is a big issue (Byrne/Carberry) / props Loughman maybe, Bealam. Would it make any sense to look at Lowe as a center?

mascher8933

Its fine lines and Ireland could easily have been looking forward to a relatively easy semi final this weekend but it is what it is.

My opinion, he may have been a legendary player but OConnell needs to come in for a lot of criticism. The line out is his responsibilty and a huge attacking weapon for most teams, we badly struggled there and put us on the back foot when it matter

Going forward, hopefully Prendergast lives up to his hype because we have a big problem at 10, Crowley and Byrne are simply not international standard.

We need to develop depth at prop, especially at tight end as Furlong powers look to be waning, he certainly is the same player from a few years ago.

The rest of the team is ok, Aki will be a big loss when he leaves but we have enough quality coming through there.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240223#Comment_121240223

In the modern game where you have yearly autumn and summer internationals between the top teams they very much should be regarded as friendlies. Whoever lifts the trophy won't give a flying fuk who won a "test" last Autumn.

The idea of it being an important match comes from the days when these things were rare.

And just for you GAA hating rugby fans. They are not called friendlies in GAA they are called challenge matches.