Boards assembly on drug use

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225948#Comment_121225948

That's quiet interesting, it almost conjures up the idea of a futuristic ' legal high' scenario like in Brave new World.

I don't think it would get rid of the black market, in fact id say they'd thrive if they could offer cheaper / stronger versions of drugs or simply cheaper stolen versions of the controlled drug.

I think that decriminalisation is far more likely than legalisation. People will take drugs as long as they exist, but a government won't and can't just decide that ' ok, we cant stop supply so off ye go and be careful' . As a society we have a seriously bad relationship with alcohol, and we see the affects of abuse on a near daily basis and thats legal - Could the country handle adding another 'legal' vice into the mix ?

foxsake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121218845#Comment_121218845

oxycontin was sold as safe and non addictive and prescribed by doctors.

many got addicted before its addictive nature was common knowledge and many other addicted through their GP

Nobody is going to buy legal cocaine with full knowledge so the scenarios aren't the same

Quitelife

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121220304#Comment_121220304

Dont think things in Portugal are brilliant after de criminalising drugs , never the less can we carry on with Drug dealers controlling towns and villages all over Ireland. should we have Drug Public Houses that sell cocaine & cannabis ??

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227900#Comment_121227900

I mentioned Oxycontin merely as an example of an albeit highly unethical , but legal opioid. I recommend anyone to watch the series 'Dopesick' on the topic. I don't believe any pharmaceutical would attempt to create a legal version of street cocaine, nevermind the fact that it would never get EU/FDA Approval, unless of course governments threw in the towel and decided on a ' if you cant beat em.... ' philosophy.

I don't quite follow your comment re buying legal cocaine with full knowledge..... people are already buying illegal cocaine with full knowledge - or at this point the vast vast majority of people anyway?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228105#Comment_121228105

Legitimate and regulated businesses are a superior option to gangs, no?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228231#Comment_121228231

To give the example of Amsterdam, the sale and consumption of cannabis is legal in licensed premises, but growing and transport is still illegal

There's basically this whole drugs trade which gets ignored. Nobody asks how the cannabis ends up in the shops

So that's kind of the fundamental problem with decriminalisation in my view, money still makes its way into illegal channels

Regarding the state of the city, the last time I was there (admittedly around 10 years ago) it looked pretty much like any other European city

Most of it was nice, not many drunks or druggies in the streets. The grungy bit was usually around the red light district, which is pretty unsurprising considering most of the late opening bars and brothels are there too

Even so the place manages to feel safer at night than O'Connell Street in daytime

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228118#Comment_121228118

Personally I wouldn't even trust the private sector with legalised production. You're ultimately hoping it'll be a shrinking market in the long run, so no profit based company is going to set up for diminishing returns

And given the highly unethical practices that went on around marketing opioids, not to mention tobacco and alcohol, it would probably be a bad idea to hand them a new market of legal highs

I think a government semi state company is the only way to do it. They can do contract manufacturing if they want but they'd also be the ultimate controller of supply

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225948#Comment_121225948

I think the whole gateway drug theory has been pretty much disproven

As much as we'd like to ignore it, there does seem to be a significant portion of the population who are able to take some drugs and remain functional and not progress to regularly taking other drugs

If it were legalised would they take more? Yeah probably in the short term, but given the price of cigarettes and alcohol these days I can't imagine a legalised and regulated bag of cannabis would be cheaper than the local drug dealer

So consumption would probably stay the same overall in the first while. People who a casual drug users will grumble and pay more but at least they aren't paying criminals

Some folks might try it if it's legal (I'll admit I probably would) but it seems unlikely they'll suddenly jump from trying some cannabis to chronic heroin or cocaine addiction without warning

There's basically two types of drug users, casual and chronic. The casual ones can switch it off when they need to and the chronic ones can't, literally nothing will stop them from getting their high regardless of legality

So instead of this impossible task of ending all drug usage, it seems a better use of resources to try and identify the chronic users early and get them the help they need.

Also if you're regulating the amount people can buy and strictly controlling the amount of addictive ingredients in the legalised drugs then they're less likely to fall into addiction

foxsake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228118#Comment_121228118

perhaps I wasnt clear. apologies.

I fully support legal , lab made cocaine for sale to the public. With reference to your last paragraph- i agree and Id go further that after an initial hype over it usage would fall back to something resembling current level. In short , the people who want cocaine will use it.

I agree it's unlikely to get EU approval but who knows.... governments are scrambling for taxes and there is a glut of money within organized crime.

If anything we know from the head shop era , people will prefer to buy from a shop than the man on their phone. hence dealers burning shops (as we had)

with reference to Oxycontin, I believe the addictive nature wasnt known to the doctors prescribing and people using till further down the road and many "accidental" addicts were created who without the original prescription by their doctor wouldn't have been addicts to anything.

I will look at dopesick soon - I can only watch one show at a time and that's up soon

Gloomtastic!

If you can’t access Dopesick, Painkiller is on Netflix and is pretty good. They deliberately tried to create a highly addictive drug from the outset.

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228231#Comment_121228231

Definitely preferable, but would we as a society be mature enough in the long term for the introduction of another controlled substance given the problems we already have with drink & tobacco? I honestly don't know.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228949#Comment_121228949

Nobody would be introducing anything. They're already there. At least this way, they can be taxed and regulated.

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228285#Comment_121228285

Many , Many ( as he wipes a tear from his eye), years ago I went to Amsterdam staying in the city Centre. I did feel really safe but on virtually every street corner in the city centre you were offered every kind of drug imaginable. They weren't confrontational but it did get tiresome and to be honest the were all very shady looking characters. Speaking to a few locals we knew who weren't by any means conservative, they said the whole smoking in public is very much frowned on as was being legless, and the associated casual drug selling was getting increasingly annoying as people went about their business.

There definitely has been a push back on that side of things from what ive been told.

Your example reminds me of the fact that trade with china was banned for a lot of things out of Europe. So prior to the handover everything was shipped to Hong Kong and subsequently ' disappeared' !

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228549#Comment_121228549

No Sweat, deffo watch dopesick - real eye opener.

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228971#Comment_121228971

I agree they are there and in use, but if they are now open to the masses can the system cope?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121229026#Comment_121229026

What system?

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228909#Comment_121228909

This is also a very good show - made about the same company & oxycontin!

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121229032#Comment_121229032

Whereas not everyone will become a drug addict as a result of regulation it would be naïve to assume there wont be a knock on effect on society so I mean the health system / Judicial system/ Maybe even sections of the economy.

We still have people who drink and drive / drug & drive despite decades of education and enforemcent strategies , fill A&E's every weekend due to drink and or drug fuelled antics not to mention the various overstretched addiction treatment centres - again despite decades of education in schools .

it boils down to numbers , more people taking drugs* - more effects it will have on society

*drink/tobacco included

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121229098#Comment_121229098

I'm not seeing an issue that's not already there. I'd begin by legalising cannabis and decriminalising everything else. Let people get licences to open shops and collect the tax revenues while saving money on not imprisoning people for drug consumption offences.

the_amazing_raisin

I'm taking a slightly more middle of the road assumption

There will be more drug usage initially, but I think it'll tail off as people become more health conscious

I don't think it'll be an enormous spike, but it won't be nothing

I think some of the systems in place will be able to handle it. For example the guards should be able to divert resources away from drug interdiction and into public order

Similarly the health system should be seeing fewer overdoses but may need to handle increased numbers of people injured due to street fights

Honestly, the only drugs which seem worrying from a public order viewpoint seem to be coke and amphetamines. They're the ones that make you feel invincible and also increase aggression

I feel that if the dosage was heavily moderated and the drugs were weakened enough they wouldn't cause as many issues

Drug dealers are of course only interested in pushing stronger and more addictive variants of the drug, so that's why we tend to see the worst of it

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121229110#Comment_121229110

fair enough , but to take your point further, no imprisonment if you consume drugs and harm no one - seems reasonable , you decide yourself what you do with your body. What happens if you consume drugs and get behind the wheel of a car and kill someone with your legally purchased drug. You will argue this is happening already as people are already doing this with illegal drugs and alcohol but now the state has given carte blanche for more mind altering drugs in society in a time when the state simply cant enforce the rules we have with the controlled substances we have.

Again i don't have the answer to that, and I certainly do see the merits of a regulated system but at risk of repeating myself you are just inevitably introducing more people to drugs.

Esho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121210707#Comment_121210707

Legalisation of cannabis is a bad idea.

More kids will start to use it. Decriminalise - yes. Allow users to grow their own limited amount like they did in a few places, to reduce profits to scum - yes.

But the rest of the drugs are illegal because they are more physically addictive than alcohol.

Make personal use liable to a 1000e fine, unless enrolled in treatment. This money to go to fund treatment.

And a 10% bounty for each successful fine - imagine how much revenue this would generate!

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121229175#Comment_121229175

That's not really an argument against legalisation. Is this what happened in the US states that legalised marajuana?

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121229245#Comment_121229245

Fair enough, we'll agree to disagree. I just feel its not as straightforward as legalize it and there will be no consequences. Decriminalization will benefit those who don't cause harm. It will embolden those who do. I wouldn't hold the US as a case study of any law regarding personal freedoms, not when you can buy an M-16 with your carton of milk. And I do concede that weed is a different beast to coke or heroin or meth.

That being said id rather be in a room full of weed smokers than a room full of coke heads.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227651#Comment_121227651

I had an argument about this with someone online a while back. I can't remember if it was on boards. They suggested that there would still be a market for stronger weed if weed was legalized. My point was that there isn't a black market for stronger alcohol. We don't have people trying to sell 80% absinthe. There's a few people making bootleg poitin but that's about it. People are fine with it the way it is. I'd imagine it would be the same with weed.

Quitelife

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228231#Comment_121228231

Probably the least bad option , ive zero interest in taking drugs but there seems to be a huge appetite amongst young Irish people for drugs which makes me sad but i can only mind myself. I dont think taking lots of cocaine or smoking lots of marijuana is good for the body but particulary the Brain . Lots of young people getting Burnt brains that will never recover from strong marijuana according to local doctor.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231280#Comment_121231280

Drinking also isn't likely to be good for brain in teenage life particularly. Imho, I'm fine with weed but cocaine is a no personally cause no appeal and the origin of it. Weed I will occasionally smoke and that's about it, I also get chronic pain so also useful for that and if I'm honest I'd be less concerned about using that over prescription painkillers.

Moderation is key to most things and all kinds of drugs including alcohol are risky in teens tbh.

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230755#Comment_121230755

I think the legalization of any drug would lead to a default black market for stronger versions. In order to legalize it a Min/ max level of the chemical compound would need to be established ( as odd as that sounds) so that it can be regulated and tested for compliance.

The market may not be huge as like you say people may be happy with whatever strength they are using but on a very basic level over prolonged use if you aren't getting the same high you would look for a stronger blend /mix. I take your point re no real market for stronger hooch, perhaps on the basis that it becomes so unpalatable that no amount of mixer or watering it down would make you drink it unless you really are so addicted you would happily drink hand sanitizer - which tragically does happen.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231280#Comment_121231280

I've no interest in them either. As I said before, the smell of weed utterly disgusts me. I just think it's morally abhorrent to be locking people up for smoking the stuff. There has to be some sort of middle ground where we collect money from it instead of wasting it punishing people for nothing.

bullpost

Legalised cannabis is probably coming down the tracks.

Beyond that its hard to see the popular recreational drugs like cocaine being legalised. Not sure it could be profitably packaged, due to the high taxes which would be needed and also the undoubted lawsuits from damaged consumers.

In any case its too late - To legalise these would only be playing catch up with the drug gangs . They would start selling alternatives which would be synthetic and much cheaper to produce and far more addictive.

The reality is that the trend is to make the legal drugs harder to access and consume, look at even a liberal country like New Zealand banning cigarette's. This is due to the impact legal drugs have had on society over time - impact on health , violence, road deaths etc.

So for me at least no clear-cut solution. Its probably a case of picking whatever approach is least-damaging to society in the long run.