Boards assembly on drug use

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231696#Comment_121231696

This makes no sense. If such synthetic alternatives existed, they'd be peddling them now.

Can you produce any evidence for your claim about New Zealand?

bullpost

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231731#Comment_121231731

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/13/new-zealand-passes-world-first-tobacco-law-to-ban-smoking-by-2025

there you go

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231882#Comment_121231882

Right but you said that New Zealand's liberal drug policies were having an adverse effect. That's what I wanted evidence for.

L.Ball

has any country in the world legalized cocaine?

hymenelectra

Mind altering substances made more freely available in countries that for all intents and purposes are facing multiple crises, yeah, I'd say skip it.

There's something that just feels wrong about this, the timing of it all, the coincidences of it all.

L.Ball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121234183#Comment_121234183

an shur everything is grand.

Gloomtastic!

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2023/1021/1412132-citizens-assembly-to-vote-on-drug-use-recommendations/

The crucial big weekend when the assembly will vote on terms of reference relating to legislation, policy and services.

Then the politicians decide.

Gloomtastic!

****! 39/38 votes against legalisation and using a health-led approach instead. I wonder how many years the waiting list will be? 🙄

magicbastarder

looks like there are issues with the vote:

https://twitter.com/r_crainn/status/1715760655179919715

https://twitter.com/AddictionsPMC/status/1715778653206757859

_Kaiser_

So the distraction that is the Citizens Assembly ends its latest review in debacle. No big deal. It's just to give the illusion of input anyway. Decisions are made long before their conclusions are issued.

As for this issue.. a skim through the garda twitter feed or a walk down most major streets in this country will show the problem we have with drug use (the smell alone is bad enough) - and that's with them being illegal! Imagine the outcome if even this weak limitation was removed.

The only ones that benefit from legalisation are the current users but the consequences will affect everyone! Plus what happens to the dealers? Will they really shrug their shoulders and say that it was nice while it lasted, or will they turn to peddling harder drugs or other activities such as burglary or other crime to supplement their income?

No thanks. We have enough problems.

(I really should just save this as a template as this topic shows up here more often than the luas).

L.Ball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121268132#Comment_121268132

no no no no no, if Drugs are legalized all crime related to it will end, and the black market will cease to be (like cigarettes), and think of the tax revenue from selling drugs. And most of all, we'll be able to source ethically made drugs from responsible producers.

Tomaldo

They voted for a "health-led" policy. People don't take illegal drugs because they believe they're nutritional. I thought hospitals and medical services were stretched to capacity. What a joke.

Beta Ray Bill

Very skeptical about legalising and decriminalising some drugs.

I get that it works in some other countries, but I think Irelands issues are unique

Other countries where it's been legalized don't have the same kind or organised criminal syndicates that Ireland has. (Yes there is gun violence, in many cases more homicides per million. But it's not the kind of drug cartel violence we have)

I think member of the Kinahan gang were at one point the worlds most wanted people.

Gloomtastic!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121273853#Comment_121273853

And by going for a medical-led policy, Ireland has decided that the cartels and criminals can keep their illicit trade. Legalising or decriminalising cannabis would have meant people could grow their own and not have to give any money to the Kinahans.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121273901#Comment_121273901

I agree that cannabis has medical uses.

Problem is that Legalising or decriminalising cannabis has the potential to legitimise some of the operations of the Cartel's

I think sort the Gangs/Cartel issue first, then discus Legalising/decriminalising

al87987

The voting for this seems really strange. 36 people vote 1st preference for full legalisation, only 23 vote 1st preference for a Health led approach and yet that wins at the end of the day by 39-38.

And because it was down to just the two of them at the end after the transferred votes, the full legalisation transferred vote is never counted and thus decriminalisation is skipped over altogether.

hymenelectra

One aspect I find interesting about this issue is the, how would you say, righteousness or moral position of those in favour of legalising drugs.

Correct me if I'm wrong in the assumption, but wouldn't most, if not all, people pushing for this legalisation be drug users already?

If the main argument is "I wouldn't have to give money to drug dealers if it was legal" coming from people who at the end of the day don't have enough of a problem to stop them giving money to drug dealers anyway...

What's the main positive to this? You feel less guilty about doing what you're doing already?

Maybe not a great analogy, but would an equivalent be people who go around fly-tipping anyway, and then arguing that if fly-tipping were made legal it'd be great? I mean yeah, it would be great for them, but it's clear it's an argument coming from a place that solely benefits them alone, and wouldn't have any effect on their behaviour anyway.

It's not exactly a brilliant soap box from which to preach.

JeffKenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274267#Comment_121274267

I'm not a drug user (nor never have been) and I would support legalising some drugs like cannabis. Can't see how it's any worse than alcohol.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274344#Comment_121274344

But why?

It's not going to change the behaviour of drug users anyway. They'll give money to drug dealers or to pharmacists or whoever. Its net zero impact.

On the otherhand, it is increasing the availability and exposure of these drugs to everyone else.

I don't see any benefit, but I can see potential detriment.

JeffKenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274380#Comment_121274380

Well you said it, it's not going to change the behaviour of drug users so might as well leave people grow a few plants for themselves in peace. Take that money out of the drug gangs hands.

With regard to availability and exposure, alcohol causes far greater problems than cannabis, yet is widely available. Probably a bit of whataboutism in that argument I know.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274519#Comment_121274519

Well you said it yourself, alcohol is neither here nor there. No need to add additional problems just because.

I don't see any positive impact from this.

If drug users are happy enough to give drug dealers money, there's no net gain to making it legal.

If drug users are happy enough to take on purity issues and potential contamination anyway, well then it isn't a big deal.

Perhaps all of the arguments for legalising more drugs arent much of an issue at all, it certainly isn't enough of a problem for them to stop. Which raises the issue of whether its actual addiction versus recreation.

Either way, it's a very weak argument all round from what I've seen.

CorkRed93

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274267#Comment_121274267

dont smoke weed but would be in favour of legalising. have smoked like 3 times in my life and never fancied it but i know plenty that do. it suits some better than others a bit like drink. unfortunately some people think there is no drawback to smoking and its "Safe". ive had 2 mates who were big smokers have serious mental issue that were amplified by smoking. bouts of depression, becoming v paranoid and delirious. ocne the eduction around it improves it should 100% be made legal.

cocaine is a scourge. not in favour of legalisign that, maybe decrim small amounts for personal use. md/psychs should be decriminalised too wouldnt be against those being legalised either if it helped make them safer for users. hard to have a bad time on MD but again like, weed it can do serious damage to your brain if abused.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274581#Comment_121274581

Fair enough, but I don't see how you can write out the above and then say you'd be in favour of legalising it.

It's obviously not a good thing. Neither is alcohol to one extent or more.

Why legalise alcohol 2.0?

All it will result in is further exposure to the general population.

CorkRed93

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274600#Comment_121274600

because people are smoking it anyway and for me the positives would outweigh the negatives. if alcohol is legal it doesnt make much sense for weed to be illegal imo. just up to adults to act their age and realise if its negatively impacting their lives that they should either stop using it or cut down.

macraignil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274380#Comment_121274380

Also a non user of drugs here and I am in favour of cannabis being legalised in Ireland as it has been in a growing list of other countries. My points in favour of legalisation that I posted earlier in the thread are that:

1.By making cannabis legal it can have quality controlled by legislation so people who use cannabis can choose a type of cannabis that suits them better and has less detrimental side effects from unwanted additives. The complaint I frequently have heard about unregulated cannabis is that some of the new strains are simply too strong and from what I have seen many cannabis users are happier to use some of the older less strong varieties. Many illegally supplied drugs are contaminated with additives that make the product worse and these could be removed from users consumption by quality control legislation of the legally supplied products. Because of the lower quality of the product supplied by illegal dealers the illegal sources would be less attractive. A choice in the cannabis available and improved quality would have a direct beneficial effect on the health of the user.

2. By having a legal system of supply cannabis users do not need to engage with illegal suppliers and so become acquainted with suppliers who may also be happy to provide them with other potentially more damaging drugs.

3. Other countries that have more liberal drug laws in place for some time have lower rates of consumption of drugs over all so the argument that keeping cannabis illegal reduces consumption is not supported by evidence.

The point you make about the user giving money to a pharmacist or a drug dealer making zero impact does not make sense to me. A user giving money to a non regulated, non tax compliant person who will pass the money on to organised crime groups in many instances to my mind is of much less benefit to society.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274621#Comment_121274621

What positives?

Did you not just list out a bunch of negatives from your own lived experience?

Legalising it changes nothing but increases exposure to people who would otherwise never have exposure.

As I said, if alcohol is bad, why add alcohol 2.0 into the mix?

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274625#Comment_121274625

But of the things you list as positives, none of that is enough of an issue to stop drug users anyway.

So they are either actual bona-fide issues, like quality and morality, enough that people would stop, or they really aren't that serious at all and drug users push on regardless.

As for money making, aka tax, now you're onto something. I can certainly see the enthusiasm from certain quarters there.

It just seems like a weak position, with a touch of money incentivisation thrown into the mix.

Great for drug users, potentially great profit for manufacturers, questionable outcome for everyone else.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274600#Comment_121274600

In medicinal cases, it can be far more preferable to using prescription painkillers. Couple of use cases are people with chronic pain, people struggling to eat due to preexisting conditions, coping with nausea from treatments etc. And these have all been recognized for decades. So having quality control and ease of availability in medical cases seems pretty reasonable.

Overall I have no issue with decriminalization. Better to move away from dealers in general.

macraignil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274707#Comment_121274707

I am not saying legalising drugs is going to stop users. What I am saying is that by legalising particularly the less harmful illegal ones like cannabis we reduce the harm being done to users by the legalised drugs which could have quality control introduced. The supply of the still illegal drugs could be more easily dealt with as suppliers of the more harmful drugs would have less income from the newly legalised drugs and less market penetration as the users of only the newly legalised drugs would have less incentive to seek them out.

I agree that the money making aspect of legalisation is a weak argument for it, but it is important I feel to cut off some of the money organised crime groups get from dealing in illegal drugs as they have been shown to use some of this money in very anti social activities like buying guns and shooting people.

I agree with you that legalising cannabis in Ireland would be great for users.

I think the effects on everyone else would also be positive with the exception of the organised crime groups that I don't think we should continue to help with this "war on drugs" style policy that has clearly not been working.

Illegal drug dealers have no need to make sure their customers are over a particular age or are not showing signs of self harm where as a supplier of legal drugs would usually have to comply with standards. Users of legal drugs may also need to comply with standards such as not smoking in a workplace so negative impacts on society from use of legal drugs is minimised.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274798#Comment_121274798

But aren't specific prescriptions available to people in those cases anyway?

As for moving away from drug dealers, yeah it's good. But the cost of moving away from drug dealers is exposing the entire population who don't move in those circles to more drugs.

It seems like a minimal, very minimal, case of positives versus an outsized potential of negatives.