Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530571#Comment_123530571

The problem with the 'Hamas made us do it' line is that literally every genocidal regime has always claimed they had no choice but to carry out genocide. 'It was forced on us', 'it was them or us', 'we were acting purely out of self defence' etc (even the Nazis used this excuse - check out Himmler's secret speeches to the SS and others in late 1943).

Them saying this is all well and good, but for western apologists to go along with this and claim that either a) the Israeli genocide and war crimes against civilians are not actually happening or b) they are happening, but are quite justified is despicable.

Sweet.Science

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123528725#Comment_123528725

being Anti israel. Anti hamas . Pro non suffering for the innocent Palestinians. 2 of the 3 are still the same. The other is a grey area now.

Sweet.Science

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123529488#Comment_123529488

You know the real answer to that even if the poster doesnt publicly post it.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530571#Comment_123530571

Ah yes, the Israeli Dahiya doctrine. Not only a war crime but a counterproductive war crime.
How many Israeli military operations have we had to stop rockets being fired from Gaza?
Here is just some of them Operation Rainbow (2004), Operation Days of Penitence (2004), Operation Summer Rains (2006), Operation Autumn Clouds(2006), Operation Hot Winter (2008), Operation Cast Lead (2009), Operation Pillar of Defense (2012), Operation Protective Edge(2014), Operation Guardian of the Walls(2021) and Operation Swords of Iron (2023).

It is wrong for you to conclude that the Israeli genocide in Gaza is “working” as you put it, because there is no rocket fire from Gaza. Wrong morally and wrong factually. There continues to be rockets fired from Gaza in recent weeks, even after 20 months of butchery.

Maybe it’s time to consider that blowing people’s children up, denying them food and medicine and burning them to death isn’t going to result in having peaceful neighbours.

Sweet.Science

Israel should have let the ship sail straight into Gaza and be welcomed by the open arms of Hamas.

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530741#Comment_123530741

Israel has no legal right to impound the ship and detain (kidnap) the occupants in international waters. Any other country doing such acts of piracy would be condemned and probably sanctioned by the international community.

Sweet.Science

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530750#Comment_123530750

True. They should have let them sail into the welcoming arms of Hamas ?

Gerry T

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530791#Comment_123530791

An unfortunate side affect, but the starving people of Palestine are the priority. If Israel are so worried about Hamas, why did they fund them preventing a one state solution. I also hear Israel are now funding terrorist families in Palestine, seems they haven't learnt !

You don't kill a full nation so you can get at a small group of terrorists. You work with the palestinians to remove Hamas. For start you remove yourself from their land, you remove the blockades at land and ports, you open dialogue and because of whats happened you give them hundreds of billions to rebuild.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530741#Comment_123530741

The Israeli armed, ISIS affiliated criminal gangs would probably have stolen the food first. Supported by Israeli drones.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwyn2m9yk0vo.amp

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530675#Comment_123530675

I don't disagree, however there are uncomfortable questions

For example, after Oct 7th, if you were leading Israel, responsible for it's security, how would you have responded?

Hamas aren't rogue ISIS terrorists occupying some part of the Middle East, they are the functional government of Gaza, they are also specialists at hiding among civilians after attacks on Israel, who are their key support network (whether they like it or not) and actual constituents. Any military response would be killing ordinary Palestinians. Worse a weak response could invite further emboldened attacks, sabotage to any negotiations, invite stronger Hezbollah actions and more provocations from other factions - and potentially ignite a much bigger conflict.

It's very easy to say "reduce the scale of it" or "do it but let more aid into Gaza" but ultimately if any of us were in that position we would have plenty blood on our hands at a very minimum.

Given the conflict, the context, the history - it's certainly not black and white nor an easy one.

Sweet.Science

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530820#Comment_123530820

So easy you should Broker the deal. What i said also went over your head. Not the sharpest.

Mod Edit: Warned for attacking the poster

Sweet.Science

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530821#Comment_123530821

Ah of course. How dare i slander a terrorist group.

J Mysterio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530848#Comment_123530848

When considering a strategy, one should consider 'don't commit war crimes' and 'don't flout international law' as a good starting point.

One might also respect prior agreements e.g. Abraham accords and consider the views of partner countries and international organizations.

The fact is the ideologues in Israel wanted to stimulate an attack so they could implement their vision - all of Palestine should be claimed for Israel alone, and Palestine should be destroyed and Palestinians relocated.

This is a right wing Israeli extremist government full of genocidal maniacs.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530865#Comment_123530865

Say what you like about Israel and Hamas. Both using terror, killing civilians etc. Some to a greater degree than others.

Gerry T

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530859#Comment_123530859

You think Hamas are a threat, the reality is Israel are far worse. You chose to ignore facts. Its interesting that a journalist on that ship is being deported, why is it that Israel won't let foreign reports into another country, is that legal ? and I'm not that sharp so maybe you can help.

A Dub in Glasgo

Looks like the UK are going full in for complicity in genocide

https://twitter.com/21WIRE/status/1932352825196966278

harryharry25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530933#Comment_123530933

Id say plenty of backbench FF and FG TDs have been told the same.

This is why the opposition are looking a free vote for all TDs on the central bank facilitating the sale of Israeli bonds

Alot of anger in FF/FG over their refusal t ok back the opposition on this a few weeks ago. Martin too afraid to say no to FG, and FG being pro Israel is turning into a problem for Govt

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123529679#Comment_123529679

israel has murdered more people in the West Bank, nothing to do with Hamas or Gaza, than were killed on Oct 7th. Why’s that??

Bishop of hope

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530957#Comment_123530957

Ridiculous statement. The govt here are one of the most vocal against Israel. Another lad that'd happily sink our economy as a resort to achieve nothing, whether the central bank deals in Israeli bonds or not.

Mod Edit: Warned for personal abuse

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530750#Comment_123530750

Hopefully Sweden, Spain, Germany etc will now bomb the fcuk out of israel in “self defence” to “save the hostages”.

That would be 100% ok right, using zio logic??

harryharry25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530971#Comment_123530971

Anyone can be vocal about whatever they want.

I don't appreciate your personal abuse towards me so il not be engaging in conversation with such a person

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530933#Comment_123530933

That's an extraordinary story. No attempt from them to confront whether the UK is or isn't assisting in the commission of war crimes - instead try and spin it that the British embassy and diplomatic staff are the 'problem'.

nacho libre

Israel did not decide to go after Hamas everywhere.

With this in mind I would have supported Israel ignoring the US by going after the Hamas political leadership in Qatar. I wonder How long could the military leadership in Gaza last without their financial support?

Instead Israel is now in a situation where even their allies are speaking out against them. Bibi is doing more harm to Israel than their enemies ever could. These aren't my words but the words of Israeli intelligence figures who have spoken out against Bibi.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530848#Comment_123530848

Within a couple of weeks of the October 7th massacre, many alarmed western observers were telling us that Israel rapidly appeared to be heading into wars crime and genocide against the Gazan people. So even by late October 2023, it had become evident that the Israeli response was already well over the top and hugely disproportionate to the horrible events from the start of the month. There's little doubt that killing Gazan civilians in large numbers was already an objective at this point.

As for what Israel should have done to retaliate against Hamas or supposedly secure its borders, they had many options open to them. Flattening Gaza, displacing 2m people, killing 50k+ people and now starving them was obviously the nuclear option and one that should never have been considered, never mind implemented.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530971#Comment_123530971

if I recall correctly an article I read a few weeks back, Ireland is not "selling" Israeli war bonds. I think they just "supervise" the prospectus. And it's a responsibility given to Ireland by the EU - ie supervision on behalf of the EU.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530933#Comment_123530933

it would be naive to think that Epstein type operations to gather compromat on influential people are restricted to the US. The UK, France, Germany etc doubtless have their Epstein’s too.

Currently, visitors to the US are having their social media monitored to check for criticism, not of the actions of the US, but of the actions of Israel. Think about that level of influence for a moment. You can criticise the US and visit the US but you can’t criticise Israel and visit the US.

Furthermore, the US has sanctioned 4 more judges of the International Criminal Court, freezing bank accounts, assets etc, because of the issuing of arrest warrants for war crimes and crimes against humanity on Netenyahu etc.

Not only is Israel’s reputation and standing in the world being shredded by their genocide. The reputation and standing of the US and collective west is being undermined by unwavering support for Israel and the complete double standards and hypocrisy of their “rules based order”.

Odhinn

We need more of this kind of thing

"The British government will formally sanction two far-right Israeli ministers, Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich, following their conduct over the war in Gaza, the Times reported on Tuesday.

The UK will join Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other nations in freezing the assets and imposing travel bans on Israel’s national security minister Ben-Gvir - a West Bank settler - and finance minister Smotrich."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2025/jun/10/israel-gaza-aid-boat-madleen-activists-deported-greta-thunberg-middle-east-crisis-latest-updates

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123531171#Comment_123531171

BBC confirms that Smotrich and Ben-Gvir (a convicted terrorist) have been sanctioned.

Two morally bankrupt people who gladly espouse ethnic cleansing and profess utter hatred for Palestinians.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8xgk1ek19lo

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123531024#Comment_123531024

Good point - this was from Haaretz yesterday and talks directly to the difference between the two Hamas's.

Netanyahu (at large alleged war criminal) has no issue taking Israel down with him. No issue using criminals and terrorists in Gaza to bolster the murder of innocent Palestinians.

According to intelligence estimates in both Israel and the Gulf, there are discrepancies between Hamas in Gaza and Hamas abroad. Hamas abroad is closer to the Qatari position. Hamas in Gaza, under the leadership of Izz al-Din al-Haddad, is much more rigid and is indicating that, as far as they are concerned, the war in Gaza may go on for several more months. Internal divisions in Hamas make it hard to formulate an outline agreeable to all parties. This entire dialogue has been taking place over the head of Israel, which is irrelevant to developments in Washington. 

Netanyahu is sitting and hoping for Hamas to sabotage negotiations, or that Iran will sabotage the parallel talks

" – Chaim Levinson

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123531068#Comment_123531068

Again, I don't disagree, but note how the question isn't really being answered.

Indeed it's not an easy answer. If you want to target Hamas you are going to kill innocent civilians. There has to be a ground operation to clear those tunnels. In such a densely packed area, the very minimum scenario is still brutal.

They can't do an operation and then 4 days later missiles are flying out of the area into Israel. Whether or not people agree with it or not, any operation to remove the threat of Hamas is going to involve serious bloodshed and displacement.

Likewise, if Hezbollah were to find a way and go into Israel tomorrow and deliberately murder/rape/abduct a large number of Israeli civilians - the very minimum response is going to result in insane violence, destruction, suffering and displacement.

And again just to clarify, the current Israeli action in Gaza is far too extreme and goes far beyond dealing with the military threat of Hamas - in my opinion it's inexcusable stuff to punish Palestinian men women and children - deliberately and systematically. The starvation aspect is deliberate to make them resent Hamas (who are known to hoard food) and ultimately reject Hamas.