Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

bnt

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has called for Hamas to hand over its weapons and for international peacekeepers to be deployed in Gaza: France24 report.

I think that's sensible. It's fair to say that the neutering of Hamas is the #1 priority of the Israeli government, and of the IDF in their campaign. It's non-negotiable: they won't accept any solution that leaves Hamas intact so they can re-group. The end of Hamas would allow humanitarian and other concerns to become the priorities.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123531068#Comment_123531068

And both the ICJ and ICC sent warning signals very quickly when the atrocities Israel was committing were broadcast around the world.

And they've gotten a whole lot worse since then.

Thinking that this campaign is wholly to do with eliminating Hamas and giving Israel safety and security misses entirely what senior Israelis have openly been stating for over a year now.

This is about the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem and annexing yet more land. Lebanon and Syria are firmly on the occupation cards too.

The abhorrent Hamas attacks of 612 days ago simply gave Israel plausible deniability of their stated goals.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123531230#Comment_123531230

I'd agree in principle with your second para about a year ago.

But today, the IDF are in full military control of 80% of Gaza and the other 20% are the "safe" areas Palestinians have been ordered to go to (concentration camps).

So - ask yourself why the IDF continues to bomb the 20% and starve the occupants to death.

Hint - it's nothing to do with eliminating Hamas.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123531230#Comment_123531230

The idea that Israel needed to 'defeat Hamas' or disable them militarily was a huge miscalculation. The chances that Hamas would have been able to inflict another October 7th on Israel were minimal - apparently, it took them years to plan the half day massacre and they would never have been able to mount another such attack on Israeli soil with anywhere even near the same effectiveness.

What could they have done against Israel, even if the complete destruction of the enclave for the last 20 months had never happened? Israel still held all the cards militarily and this time would have been well prepared for a second such attack.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123531241#Comment_123531241

You'd think that, wouldn't you.

The end of Hamas would result in zero change in the campaign.

Remember when the IDF said Hamas were defeated? They quickly rowed back on that because the plausible deniability for ethnic cleansing was gone.

J Mysterio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123531241#Comment_123531241

Naive view.

The no.1 priority for this government is to seize Palestinian land and expel Palestinians from Israel/ Palestine.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530724#Comment_123530724

Once again…absolute gibberish.

I haven't a clue what point you are trying to make in any of your posts.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123531241#Comment_123531241

if you believe that is israels #1 priority, I have a lovely bridge across the Liffey to sell you.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123529679#Comment_123529679

There wouldn't be a war if those murderers and rapists hadn't attacked Israel on Oct 7th.

There wouldnt be a war if Israel and the IDF had not

1. Stolen Palestinian land for decades.
2. Regularly turned off water and power to Gaza over the years.
3. Stopped humanitarian aid getting into Gaza for years.

October 2023 didnt happen in a vacuum - While I absolutely condemn Hamas for what they did I can see why they reacted in this way. They should have targeted IDF forces though and not civilians.

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123531241#Comment_123531241

The Israelis will not allow neutral peacekeepers. They'd get in the way.

rogber

Interesting statistics about just how little Israeli citizens care about suffering in Gaza and basically regard the Palestinians as unworthy of life:

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp92egdlp3mo

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123531241#Comment_123531241

It's fair to say that the neutering of Hamas is the #1 priority of the Israeli government, and of the IDF in their campaign

How does the craic they are at in the West bank tie in with the above?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123531730#Comment_123531730

Hamas could put your theory to the test very easily by leaving Gaza …

As for the alleged claim of genocide, it should be noted that our government needs to "expand" the definition of genocide to cover the Israeli war on Hamas, because what they're doing obviously does not fit the bill.

Ireland wants expansion of the definition of genocide under the Geneva Convention, says Taoiseach | Irish Independent

As to some of Israel's recent actions, such as the bombing at/near the European Hospital, we now know that Hamas was using that facility as a shield for their leader. Of course, Hamas gets no blame for using civilians and clear civilian facilities as shields …

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123532027#Comment_123532027

It's a good article. There are clearly one or two decent Israeli people interviewed, but quite a few radicalised Zionist maniacs who are fully on board with the genocide and who want to see Gaza ethnically cleansed.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123531447#Comment_123531447

So as a reaction to the events you mention in your post they attack a music festival shooting the men, and raping the women.

But as you say yourself you can see why they reacted in this way.

Care to expand on that?

Bishop of hope

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123531310#Comment_123531310

That's a post highlighting the President of Palestine calling for Hamas to leave the field. Still no recognition of someone whom you would assume has the best interests of his people at heart recognising that whatever chance Gaza has now of surviving, Hamas need to get out of the picture. Instead it's not even accepting Mahmoud Abbas opinion, it's just the usual, but Israel........

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123532188#Comment_123532188

When an FBI agent interviews a serial killer they try to find out why they committed an evil act. When this happens the FBI agent is not agreeing with the evil act, they are just trying to understand the why because its important. All terrorists are evil scumbags but trying to understand why they commit evil is important if you want to stop terrorism

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123532466#Comment_123532466

I have no idea what this nonsense is and it doesn't matter anyway because it wasn't you I quoted.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123532188#Comment_123532188

Hypocritical comment from you tbh

Half your posts are "what do you expect would happen after October 7th".

Israelis soldiers have murdered, raped, imprisoned, and child murdered many many more multiples of Palestinians than Palestinians have ever done to them, October 7th included - and you have no issue frequently and flippantly explaining this attempt to destroy Palestinians as a natural reaction.

If you want to call out other people for distasteful comments grand, but I'd hope you'd recognize you are at the same craic. Kind of seems like you are only disgusted at these acts if it's Muslims doing it.

Also, can't speak for that poster, but I would suggest that he means he can understand why Palestinians would resort to extremism and terrorism in the face of the brutality they have endured. Doesn't mean anyone agrees with it.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123532447#Comment_123532447

I've consistently stated that Hamas need to go. The PA have been stating it for months.

But don't make the mistake when the last of those terrorists pack up their bags and leave voluntarily or are zipped up in a body bag that Israel will equally pack up its bags and leave Gaza too.

Anyone who believes that the conflict and campaign will cease when Hamas has gone is really not listening to the Israeli Govt and in particular its alleged War Criminal prime minister and two other ministers slapped with sanctions today by five nations.

Hamas being neutralised is only a part of the plan - a tiny part. There's still two million civilians to be taken out too. Be that shredded, starved to death or ethnically cleansed.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123532151#Comment_123532151

As ever, I admire your tenacity but your flawed arguments really are paper thin and ever so tired.

The ICJ ruled the case for Genocide against Israel was plausible a year ago. They laid down interim measures, twice, that Israel had to implement (which they ignored twice). Those ruling are on the current agreed legal definition of Genocide.

Any proposed change to the definition will have zero bearing on current cases (Genocide and War Crimes) against Israel and its leaders.

Your assertion that the definition of Genocide is being changed to fit the current crimes is false, and demonstrably so.

The old "but Hamas" canard is also tiresome at this stage. Yes, they have undoubtedly used civilian infrastructure and civilians as shields (as has the IDF) and that is abhorrent and a war crime. They committed atrocities against Israelis 612 days ago. Abhorrent and a war crime. But every single day since, Israel has committed atrocities that far beyond the realms of proportionality and international law.

That you think people give Hamas a pass for using human shields is disingenuous. No-one gives Hamas a pass for anything.

But if you firmly believe 200,000 dead human shields is acceptable, that's a very bold position.

Of course, that does not explain those who have died from Israeli starvation tactics and the many tens of thousands to come.

But sure, you're not going to change your tune now and that's fair enough - you are entitled. But it's been a morally bankrupt position in my opinion for well over a year now.

Strazdas

Something that hasn't received much coverage is that a huge convoy of thousands of people, mostly from Arab countries, is making its way towards the Gaza border. Called the Sumoud Convoy, it includes doctors, nurses, aid volunteers, media, diplomats, lawyers and hundreds of vehicles. It will be interesting to see how the regime handle their arrival.

dmcdona

Presumably, the shackles of a UN peacekeeping force doesn't give Israel the freedom they need to extend current operations in the South and they are eyeing up their Northern borders.

Is Lebanon the next Gaza?

Israel is seeking to terminate the operations of the UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) tasked with keeping the peace in the south of the country, an Israeli source told Haaretz, adding that Israel and the U.S. will hold discussions in Israel on the subject on the coming days, but that a final decision has not yet been made.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123532151#Comment_123532151

Hamas offered to give up ruling Gaza and let an independent body do this instead. No surprise that the the US and Israel turned this down.

Bishop of hope

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123532528#Comment_123532528

OK, I am well aware of your posts calling out Hamas, no issue with you at all on that. But why just dismiss it as a chance of seeing if it stops Israel and let's aid get in. I think it's a bit disingenuous to state that Hamas must go on one hand bt still say it doesn't matter whether they do or not anyway.

Bishop of hope

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123532607#Comment_123532607

It will be interesting to see if Egypt opens its borders for that.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123532636#Comment_123532636

Do you think that if Hamas is neutralised and hostages returned that Israel will cease all hostilities and withdraw from Gaza?

Simple yes or no.

Bishop of hope

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123532662#Comment_123532662

I don't know if I'm honest, but I'd certainly hope so. I'd hope at that stage that their Allies would insist on it.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123532647#Comment_123532647

Convoy is scheduled to arrive at the Gaza border on Sunday btw.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123532672#Comment_123532672

Fair enough.

Looking at the concentration camps the IDF has already constructed in Gaza , plus their locations, and that 80% of Gaza is under full military control, there is no way Israel will just leave. Of course, I can't guarantee that and I don't know for sure that the outcome will be exactly that. But anyone carefully reading between the lines, that is what is almost certain to happen - continuing occupation of Gaza and moving the Palestinians out.

And what's "disingenuous" about holding the two points of view? Hamas should go but it won't result in Israel ceasing its campaign of Genocide?

I'd agree with you if that was coming from someone who supported Hamas and didn't give a fiddlers about Palestinian civilians. But you know my pov is entirely the opposite.