Deposit return scheme (recycling)

L1011 · 29-11-2023 12:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121431109#Comment_121431109

Done in maybe a third of EU countries and well legally tested. Local labelling laws are not illegal and exist for loads of things.

Rigor Mortis · 29-11-2023 10:16am

Nope. DRS schemes are well tested in law and will be a pretty much mandatory part of the next EU regulations on Packaging Waste

creedp · 29-11-2023 10:36am

As a matter of interest who benefits if the deposit is not collected and for example a person continues to put all items in the green bin

L1011 · 29-11-2023 10:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121431876#Comment_121431876

Re-turn. It's part of what will fund the scheme along with the producer fees

Retailers will be paid (a tiny amount) for handling returns so each returned container costs some money to handle

creedp · 29-11-2023 11:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121431926#Comment_121431926

Thanks. No particular issue with the scheme especially if it improves recycling rates, I can't stand wasting resources unnecessarily. My only gripe is that someone who has always done the right thing by recycling everything via the green bin or visits to recycling centre will now be penalised for continuing to operate in that manner. Cest la vie I suppose

elperello · 29-11-2023 12:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121431961#Comment_121431961

That's it pretty much in a nutshell.

I suppose we'll just get on with it.

Does anyone know if shops doing manual exchange will be able to take damaged cans that the machines will reject ?

Rigor Mortis · 29-11-2023 12:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432315#Comment_121432315

No, or at least they would do it at a loss. Because after the shops take them they are sent to a sorting centre for scanning - in a giant rvm of sorts. So if the can doesnt scan, the shop doesnt get paid their deposit back, nor their handling fee.

elperello · 29-11-2023 1:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432434#Comment_121432434

Thanks for the info.

It seems that the scheme has limitations re. it's effect on littering.

A lot of the cans one sees littered are crushed or damaged in some way.

People won't bother picking them up if they can't get the reward.

Of course the refund will encourage the original user to return the can which is a positive.

Rigor Mortis · 29-11-2023 2:14pm

The experience would suggest that will be minor enough. A lot of the damage done to littered cans is most likely done while its litter, not before its dropped. Kids and others are likely to ensure that they dont stay litter for long enough to get damaged.

Ray Palmer · 29-11-2023 3:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432434#Comment_121432434

The RVM crushes them at the store so the big RVM machines are done by weight and matched with the reports from the retail RVM

elperello · 29-11-2023 4:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432753#Comment_121432753

I hope so.

I expect if cans are dropped intact they won't be left too long in an urban environment. In rural areas they tend to get driven over.

I'm still living in hope and looking forward to a reduction in can litter.

Next item on the agenda fast food packaging.

SharkMX · 29-11-2023 4:06pm

The one in my nearest lidl seems to be broken all the time.

But im not seeing the benefit on this scheme at all.

I can recycle plastic bottles at home. I already pay for this. Im sure i'll continue to pay the same amount or more even without the 4 or 5 bottles a week that i might recycle in a machine. And glass bottles go to a bottle bank 5 minutes walk away from where i live.

If i want to use lidls machine then i have to drive there and home, when i might be doing my shopping on the way home from work somewhere else.

L1011 · 29-11-2023 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433371#Comment_121433371

Lidl ones are not Re-Turn ones. They are their own pilot.

Rigor Mortis · 29-11-2023 4:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433124#Comment_121433124

All of the major retailers are signed up. It's not really an option ad most of them have been preparing for over a year or more. At present they are up at about 3k retailers registered. Some of the smaller newsagent type ones may apply for a total exemption, but ultimately over time every retailer will either be registered as a return point or registered as exempt or not selling drinks.

There will be an app with a store locater at go live and probably a little earlier.

Rigor Mortis · 29-11-2023 4:39pm

@Ray Palmer I was referring to shops operating manual collection which was the point i was responding to. Those shops dont have RVMs. Their take is collected and centrally sorted in an rVM, counted and then crushed.

Genghis · 30-11-2023 12:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433501#Comment_121433501

Am curious - do you store these indoors or in a shed? Given they have a cash value, storing them say at the side of a house (where I keep my recycling) could mean people stealing your empties.

Genghis · 30-11-2023 6:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121436985#Comment_121436985

Yes but I wasn't talking about someone who would break into your property to steal high value items.

There will be people who make small money from 'finding' un-returned bottles and cans. Far easier for them to raid a recycling bin by the side of a house that is full of unreturned cans and bottles than say randomly rooting through public bins for the odd can or bottle thrown away.

30-11-2023 8:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439137#Comment_121439137

One man’s trash really will be another man’s treasure!

aidanodr · 05-12-2023 11:07am

Adam Maguire RTE Journo posted this tweet thread on all this, very interesting and the comments are also worth a look. Lots of interesting observations/points

https://twitter.com/AdamMaguire/status/1731700041339822507

aidanodr · 05-12-2023 11:13am

Some of the comments in Adams Tweet thread above that stuck out to me:

".. you can return the plastics to any store/machine.But the receipt you get will only apply to that store - but you can go in and exchange it for cash (or spend it there, like a coupon).So who decides whether u get cash or spend the value there. Do you or shop make that decision"

"The surcharge will have a significant inflationary impact on prices, will it be included or excluded from CPI?" .. ( ans seems to be NO )

"In theory it’s great but for those who already pay for recycling bins we are now having to pay twice and go to the trouble of bringing them to the supermarket"

"See how that machine says “up to €2 max”? Does this mean we can’t bring our weekly amount of bottles back? The max return amount is 2€? Also, why does it say 5c per item when we’re paying 15c per small bottle?"

"note there is no mention of the admin fee that will be charged and take up most of the value of the deposit. In effect it will be inflationary"

Apparently the retailer decides whether you get CASH back or Credit? latter needs to be spent in that store then?

While I do think the idea is good I just cannot shake the feeling there is a dodgy irish angle where the shops concerned or from this yet another quango .. from our past experience.

Im also surprised by how under the radar this is for such a relatively big change coming very very soon. In general chat with people, most have not heard of it OR they have and think its mainly for people/kids who might pick up empty plastic bottles, cans and go into shop to make a bit of pocket money. NONE realised the impact it will have on them via increased prices and into green bin or to store to return to get cash back.

Genghis · 05-12-2023 12:19pm

One thing I have been thinking about is the actual need for the special, high maintenance, barcode.

The bar code

Makes it more difficult for consumers to recycle (as special barcode must not be damaged)
Makes it more difficult for producers, and for importers by having a specific label "just for Ireland".
It reduces competition as Ireland is a small market, certain craft beers, possibly online sellers etc will simply not want to bother with Ireland

We might be told the bar code has a role to play in the collection of the fee from producers. In reality, the fee is simply going to be levied based on sales records, its not like the bar-code is physically issued.

It has no advantage to retailers either, unless we think they need extra-special help in deciding what is a recyclable bottle or can.

The only rational reason I can see is a worry that people might recycle NI packaging in ROI. That risk evaporates once the UK adopts a similar scheme (soon), there are other ways to deal with that risk in the meantime, i.e. impose a low deposit now to establish the scheme but not overly incentivise cross border recycling (e.g. 5c) and when the UK adopts theirs, adjust the deposit accordingly.

Then again, having a bar-code, making it compulsory and getting to spend lots of money on cheery branding will validate the collective ego of the new quango. Its existential for them, but nothing more.

T-Maxx · 05-12-2023 12:20pm

I reckon it's intentionally kept quiet for a number of reasons - not least by the shops/chains themselves who will be making a fortune untill customers have copped on.

Charles Babbage · 05-12-2023 12:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456808#Comment_121456808

The green bin operators should make a few euro too.

andrew1977 · 05-12-2023 12:50pm

If I return beer cans and get a voucher to use in store, can i use it to buy more beer/put it towards my beer purchase ?

The use of vouchers towards booze is illegal , i assume it can work like a shop bought voucher, where you can buy booze with it ?

aidanodr · 05-12-2023 12:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456933#Comment_121456933

My related issue is if you return beer cans it seems it will be the stores option to give you cash or a voucher .. the latter to be used IN THERE STORE. I reckon all stores will opt for the voucher forcing you to spend it in there store. Other Q is .. how long does this voucher last?

Atlantic Dawn · 05-12-2023 12:55pm

I can't understand why the can/bottle needs to be 100% intact to be accepted, could the system not scan the label/barcode and have an expected weight of x for the item and simply reject any that are not this weight? Obviously the scan part would need to be untouched. All are getting crushed moments after going in to the machine.

fun loving criminal · 05-12-2023 1:15pm

What happens if you buy a bottle of water at an event or concert? What happens then? Do the organisers have to add the 15-25c on and then what? Bring home a collection of bottles from the night and we're only allowed to use a small handbag.

And can you get a return to your bank card because I've stopped using cash and I don't want to be given dirty money at the till?

fun loving criminal · 05-12-2023 2:05pm

Another question I have what about large bottles? I'm talking about the 5L bottles of water. The bottle bank doesn't look like it would take a large bottle like that but the wording of the whole scheme seems like a charge will be placed on every bottle.