Disability Payments Review

Dempo1

Just for those on Disability Allowance or Invalidity Pension. The Minister looking to over haul the system, essentially introduce a 3 Tier Level of Disability. It's Shocking & Outrageous.

Article in the Irish Times today

Cherry Blossom

its subscription only Dempo1 will keep my eyes peeled to see who else picks up the story.

Cherry Blossom

Someone sent me screenshots, I don’t know Dempo1. I doubt I’d only qualify for the lower tier but I only see positives in it nonetheless. No one will be any worse off in any case.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121134254#Comment_121134254

The crux of what's being proposed is a 3 tier level of Disability, which I find alarming in itself. Some folks may have a small level of Disability but a number of Medical issues, others obviously severe Disability. 3 Tiered payments also.

Just on my own experience of the application process which involved over 50 pages to include the application form it would seem to me that certainly in recent times you won't get DA without a severe illness or Diagnosis, plus the support of your GP.

My fear is this is a slippery road & these proposals include Invalidity Pension.

SteM

Link - https://archive.ph/CC7Jy

Cherry Blossom

I’d be interested to know if you get a stamp for the new proposed scheme or only on certain tiers or what.

hayrabit

I'm mentalasanything !

i demand to be placed in top tier, ie most coin 😊

#asknotwhatyoucandoforyourcountrybutaskhowmuchsocialwelfareyacangetfreegratisoffthestate

:)

hayrabit

^^^

thread deserved a bump, and me had nowt salient to submit 😴

Cherry Blossom

🙄.

doc22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121134334#Comment_121134334

My guess is this will be used to cut the increasing disability claims(that somewhat goes with the increasing population and aging demo) and like the UK unless your level 3 you will pushed to workforce. Means testing is a question too for joint scheme as Invalidity Pension is paid for life(regardless of means) while DA is means tested.

zell12

Aren't they just following other countries in EU in categorising disability levels?

People in level 1 payments of €260pw, level 2 to €240pw, level 3 €220pw. The Department believes up to half of the 225,000 in receipt of disability payments would be in level 3 and would like to work but are precluded from seeking employment as they could lose their payment.

Cherry Blossom

Some of us are working in the present system. I was going to say ‘Plenty’ of us but that might not be accurate. It took me years to find suitable employment with an understanding employer and it happened with the help of the employability service. Any jobs I applied for in the normal way came to nothing when I disclosed I had health problems which I felt it was necessary to do to find the right post for me.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121135441#Comment_121135441

I'm not familiar with how it works in other countries. People on DA can work up to 19.5 hours as is. I fear this is more about getting people of DA and if I'm being honest, I've no doubt a lot on DA Historically, possibly should never have been on it.

It's incredibly difficult to get DA now. If this goes ahead, just reassessing the many on it will be a challenge in itself. There's one page on the application form that's going to be crucial, the Bit were a GP determines severity of illness. I know on mine it was Severe to profound.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121135382#Comment_121135382

You could be right, but just determining a level of Disability is not easy. Clearly certain physical Disabilities are obvious but Determining the level a Nuerologic, Mental and less obvious Disabilities are will be very difficult.

Cherry Blossom

I think mine was moderate. There’s no limit to the amount of hours you can work on DA at present Dempo, the limits are in monetary terms. There are different monetary brackets where different means assessment rule apply. I work 24 hours. In all honesty that’s probably my personal limit as regards managing my own stress levels and preventing a relapse with my mental health. I just could not possibly continue to live indefinitely on DA and have a decent life. Personally I need to have a little disposable income for my own sanity and need to have a purpose in life, I couldn’t have coasted along on just a social welfare income alone for many more years. It wasn’t helping my mental state at all. Things have taken a great upturn in my life since I stated back in employment and subsequently moved house into my own place.

zell12

I'd say it is more including those with disabilities in society. It's shown that poverty is rampant for those in receipt of DA, this could be a push for claimants to do work/education/something for themselves to lead more meaningful lives. Gawd that sounds soo Tory.

The other reason it is happening imo is because of welfare tourism from the rest of EU, even with the habitual residence clause, it is noticeably happening.

Cherry Blossom

Having had time to think about this article now it seems to be a way of implementing the ‘cost of disability’ payment lobby groups were asking for in their budget submissions, but it enables them to exclude a large number of claimants from getting this additional support. I could really do with funds to spend on ongoing counseling services personally on an ongoing basis. I can’t afford it so I currently dip in and out of various free services offered by charities and community organizations.

Gatling

It kinda makes sense for a long time we had a lot of people especially young people being signed off almost permanently,based off having a bad back or similar, while it's gotten more difficult to get it's still can be gotten by someone who might not be so honest about their health situation, I seem to remember when they brought new assesments in the UK something like 1 million people ( open to correction)came off disability payments before the medical reassessments began ,

I personally believe if your able to work it should absolutely encouraged, I'd rather see a bigger cut between tiers your , while keeping a medical card depending on the medical condition/s

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121135548#Comment_121135548

Apologies, I understood it was 19.5 hrs. You've done so well and should be proud of yourself 👌

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121135578#Comment_121135578

Good points 👌

I can on reflection see some merit in looking at the current system. My fear would be those on the Margins, perhaps with mental illness that is not always easy to assess.

On Twitter, during the week, someone I follow reported her 19 year old Daughter, with severe Autism & behavioural issues, with a Diagnosis was declined DA, Her parents the Diligent type and submitted all the necessary paperwork.

I do believe, historically many got awarded DA far to easily, I do believe scrutiny important.

sunbeam

The green paper is up on the website now. Looks very much like they are proposing to go the UK route. ☹️

https://www.gov.ie/en/consultation/3b001-green-paper-on-disability-reform-a-public-consultation-to-reform-disability-payments-in-ireland/

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121135797#Comment_121135797

Thanks for that 👌

zell12

We want to bring in a new Personal Support Payment 🙄 and Working Age Payment

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121135792#Comment_121135792

I know of Similar case's where a child at 16 got DA based off an autism diagnosis I know the perticular lad , while he's on the spectrum he's doing his leaving this year as he's only moderate the spectrum,but at as you said others have to fight tooth and nail to get their children their benefits they are entitled to , we don't make things easy those who are most in need,

But how do you deal with the likes of those who got DA when it was a lot easier with say something like depression,I can't work because I have depression is not something that should be a thing, there needs to be honest engagement with people ,but how do they go about it without upsetting various groups

sunbeam

Oh believe me, it can be A Thing if you have chronic seriously debilitating treatment resistant depression.

doc22

New model if adopted would mean level 3 would be essentially the same as jobseekers....

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136211#Comment_121136211

That's how it looks alright

Ginger83

Is this coming in any time soon?

How would things change for someone on IP with a diagnosed terminal condition?

hawthorne

There will be months of discussion first. If there is an election in the meantime, the whole thing is dead in the water.

Folks who are on IP now won't loose it. They will stay on as long as they qualify for it under the present rules.

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136429#Comment_121136429

Thanks i could do without the stress of it.

Cherry Blossom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136452#Comment_121136452

Having just read the whole thing, I feel the same. I don't like that they don't give any indication of what the income limits might be for lower and middle tiered payments for those that work part time.

sunbeam

If implemented, the plan seems to be to move all existing claimants over to the new system over a period of about five years.

But yes, it's just a discussion document for the moment. The public consultation on this is open until December 15th.

hawthorne

The whole thing is a proposal. It will be discussed in the coming months. Folks can make an input. It will drag on- and on- and on. We all know how many years it took to get the pension reform taking shape. Even now there has no legislation passed the Dail in that matter.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136499#Comment_121136499

I do agree it's only up for discussion and will likely drag on. Disability advocacy groups already not happy on Twitter. It appears to be a solo run by the Minister & Fine Gael & their track record on Social Welfare well known.

I can not see how they could mess with Invalidity Pension but could certainly see them trying to reduce the amount of people on DA.

The current system of eligibility for IP for those on DA and whom have worked all their lives very unfair. Essentially if a person awarded DA and not on Illness Benefit for 2 years prior to being awarded DA or on a CE scheme or Jobseekers prior to being awarded DA, they'll never reach eligibility for IP & Will likely be on DA Until pension age.

DA is also subject to review where as IP is not.

I think a Certain Age Cohort on DA might be left as is, but I can see many considered level 1 or 2 in a certain age category being "Encouraged" of DA

I may be wrong but this is where I see this going if it gets passed the discussion stage.

doc22

Invalidity Pension for life and Questionable DA claims need to be reviewed and rules applied consistently(half the DCA claimants don't meet DA requirements at 16 for example when the claim comes for review for perhaps the first time ). The proposed system just creates a new point for appeal, once to get in payment and another for the tier

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136871#Comment_121136871

I think the fact there's been increases in the thousands of people being awarded, DA the bill is 1.4 billion per year now and increasing, I'd take disability out of the title too ,that itself suggest it's a permanent situation,but not everyone on DA is permanently disabled and unable to ever work again,I can't see them going after an older cohort of people

doc22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136903#Comment_121136903

I'd agree, the notion of DA was easier to get in the past kinda doesn't make sense when there was 50k claimants in 2000 versus 160k in 2022 while Invalidity only increased from 50 to 75k. I will say the Pre-Retirement Allowance which looked after the older cohort before 2007 and reduction in IB may account for some of the difference

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137078#Comment_121137078

It was definitely easier people could apply and get it in weeks where as now people from my personal experiences could be looking at 12-18 months to get a decision due to the Amount of medical documentation required to back up a claim now where before it was signed off by your gp now you need specialists and consultants backing your claim,

Which doesn't make sense considering the increases over the last few years,I get the feeling COVID may have had some kind of knock on effect

Donald Trump

What is the issue?

People who are genuinely disabled should absolutely have their payments increased.

Those who engineer themselves to get signed off on disability so that they aren't subject to the same requirements as regular dole should not.

There are plenty of the former and plenty of the latter. They should be distinguished

doc22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137211#Comment_121137211

I've no idea about claims today, but I'd expect more then a gp signin a few boxes for a long term claim.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137424#Comment_121137424

Currently there's a lot more than a GP ticking boxes, numerous questions asked of GP + Medical reports. I just went through the process

PineappleSoup

I'm not directly impacted by this but I really hope the idea of anything similar to the UK isn't entertained. I have a lot of engagement with people with disabilities around the world, so that's the perspective I'm coming from.

In the UK, people are regularly reassessed for their "level" by people who often have no experience of the condition that person is dealing with, and they generally don't bother to request information from GP/Consultants etc. who are actually familiar with the individual. Someone can be assessed as being on one end of the "level" system and then reassessed and found to be on the other end with no change in condition or ability - the only change is the person conducting the assessment. People who have long term, life limiting conditions requiring full time care are routinely reassessed.

If the problem is actually that people who feel they could work are afraid they'll lose their payment, why not set up a scheme that anyone on disability can avail of that supports them going to work. We all know "invited to engage" is likely to mean pressurised or forced to engage under threat of losing payment, and the added stress that causes can have a detrimental impact on a persons health. The vast majority of people want to work if they are able, particularly with income being a big issue. Something similar to sick pay could be done where the disability payment goes via the employer while the person is working, and if they are later unable to work they immediately revert to receiving their payment directly.

I notice the Green Paper says that we have a lower number of people with disabilities in the workforce, but then a little note that we have a lower number of people with disabilities overall. That means we may have people with disabilities in the workforce who just aren't classified as having a disability here but would be elsewhere. So the problem that they are proposing a solution to probably isn't a problem.

I'd also be curious about how healthcare plays a role. How many people are experiencing disability as a result of being left waiting for the healthcare they need? How does that compare to the rest of the EU? How many extra staff would be required to implement such a system? How many of them would be healthcare staff who are needed far more in our hospitals? What is the real cost versus benefit? What are the potential harms to those people most impacted?

I note Cherry Blossom mentioned how difficult it was finding an employer who offered suitable employment. Perhaps this is something that needs to be looked at, more investment in training and helping employers provide reasonable accommodations to those who need them. In some cases people apply for disability after a great deal of struggle coping in the workforce - maybe dealing with the issue at the source would help.

Sorry that's such a long rant, but I think it's important to offer thoughts and insights. Might give other people some thoughts or ideas and encourage submissions for/against the idea with different solutions.

I will be making a submission myself.

doc22

"If the problem is actually that people who feel they could work are afraid they'll lose their payment, why not set up a scheme that anyone on disability can avail of that supports them going to work."

A type of scheme exists

https://www.gov.ie/en/service/37c057-wage-subsidy-scheme/

https://www.gov.ie/en/service/62fd96-reasonable-accommodation-fund/

With DA disregards,medical card, travel pass etc What more is needed?

Altreab2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137592#Comment_121137592

Like most things the devil is in the detail. The disregards are good but If you are living with another person also on disability or another means tested allowance the new income will affect them as well. Means tests are based on household income not just the means of the individual. Medical cards are also assessed on income. This does and will lead to the grey areas in eligibility for the medical card. Travel pass is only of use if there is dependable accessible public transport available. In most places in this country (Including urban areas) that is not the case if you are a wheelchair user.

Gusser09

I think it's a good idea. I have a son, 14, who will never work or have the prospect of getting work due to his disability. The idea that he has to survive on the current rate of payment is worrying. Although the tier 1 payment is only an extra 40 euro or so it is a decent increase.

In all I don't think it's acceptable that we compare the prospect of someone who is temporarily disabled with some who is permanently disabled.

Also you would hope that this means people who are capable of work will be incentivised to engage with the employment services and get back out into the workforce. The money saved here could be diverted into other schemes for severely disabled and their families such as respite.

PineappleSoup

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137592#Comment_121137592

Well the proposal is for requiring some people on disability to take up training and employment - likely something similar to JobPath. I'm saying that instead of forcing people onto such schemes which can actually be detrimental to a persons health, we provide training and supports that people can opt in to if they are able. Encouraging and supporting people generally has better outcomes than forcing them. And there are probably many instances where people are unaware of what is available, maybe localised email mailing lists that advise people of training and supports in their area. Think occupational therapy type support as opposed to "work here or lose your payment". Help people to identify what accommodations they need in order to succeed in the workplace.

I think you maybe meant to link to the EmployAbility scheme, which requires being job ready. Maybe some people aren't or don't quite feel job ready but would like to be and feel that they could be - what other supports could be added? How many employers engage with that service? Why don't more of them engage? Why don't more people engage? What are the experiences like for those people and how could it be improved? I don't know all of the answers to those things, but if this problem exists then obviously whatever is currently in place isn't working as intended and more is needed. Some people might think the solution should be forcing people into the work force, but having seen the impacts this has on people, I disagree.

According to the article The Department believes up to half of those on disability payments would be in the level 3 category and that they "would like to work but are precluded from seeking employment as they could lose their payment". If we take the quoted at face value, why do they need to be required to enter the workforce? Surely changing the system so that the fear is removed, where payment is immediately restored if someone later cannot remain in the workforce, would align as a better solution given the claim.

The UK system isn't fit for purpose. It is designed around the idea that making it as difficult as possible to apply for and receive support prevents people gaming the system, when in fact the people who would game the system have the energy to jump through hoops, while the majority of applicants who are genuinely disabled don't have that same energy. Those most in need are punished and harmed by such a system.

What is actually being proposed here is forcing half of people on disability payments into the workforce with a medical card. The increase is much needed and I'm sure would be very welcomed, but the rest of it is a horrific idea. In the UK, 90 people a month die after being deemed fit for work (what we're proposing as level 3). Research has linked the work capability assessment with 600 suicides over 3 years. (Sorry, can't post links yet, but it's not hard to find)

This really isn't a system we should be mirroring. If half of those on disability would like to work, why not ask them directly what would help enable them to do so? An anonymous survey of those on disability so people don't fear being penalised - do you feel you could engage in the workforce, to what degree, what supports would help you to do so? I somehow doubt many will answer that being forced is what they need.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137860#Comment_121137860

Great post and thank you 👌

sunbeam

Agree wholeheartedly PineappleSoup.

At a very basic level, why not ask people what supports they need to improve their lives? For some it might be greater access to OT so they can be helped to manage the basic activities of daily living, which aren't always easy if you have a chronic and exhausting condition. For others it might be access to part time or online third level education, with grants for fees- not just generic one size fit all courses. And many other things.

The UK system is likely to get worse, as their government is seeking to drastically reduce the numbers in the support group, which would be group 1 under the proposals here. Just because someone is severely disabled doesn't mean that they will always be protected under a system like this.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137518#Comment_121137518

I saw a documentary on this - in the UK it’s private companies doing these assessments who are incentivized to get people “back into the work force” I believe the focus of the documentary was to highlight life on benifits in general not just disability so the case studies shown were questionable - however the same tactics applied to someone genuinely disabled or unable to work would be cruel and demeaning especially if it was to be on a regular basis like shown in that doc.

sunbeam

More information about the latest aspect of benefits reform consultation in the UK:

https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/consultation-on-slashing-support-group-launched-by-dwp

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121135573#Comment_121135573

Works both ways it could help integrate the disabled into society, give confidence mental well being etc etc etc.

Or such people are taken advantage of and used as dogsbodies - and it is work for the sake of it. Not real employment. Licking envelopes or filling out spreadsheets.

Normally in such schemes there is financial incentive to work on top of benefits. They will just think up a new name Community Employment/Jobbridge etc It just seems like a political equivalent of a rebranding.