A wonderful illustration showing how much public space we’ve handed over to cars

Thelonious Monk

Some things are changing for the better. Along the new bike path into the city centre in North Strand in Dublin they have raised pedestrian crossings that look like a continuation of the footpath across some of the side streets. Which means the car has to go over the raised footpath instead of the pedestrian having to step down onto the road and then back up on the other side. You may thing it's a tiny detail but this would make a difference for older people or people with disabilities. I mean why the hell were pedestrians the people expected to make the extra effort instead of the person in the warm car not expending any energy?

Here's what I'm talking about in North Strand, not quite finished when google took this image but you get the idea.

We really did have it backwards for a while but hopefully pedestrians are put first in urban areas going forward.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955838#Comment_120955838

People refusing to live in towns & villages is what's killing the butcher, post office, baker, small businesses. Everyone wants their one off house, this leads to car dependency. Lazy, overweight, car dependent people want huge carparks & outlet shopping, they won't go near towns & villages, it might mean walking more than 200 metres.

That's what's really killing rural towns & villages.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955843#Comment_120955843

Grafton street and Henry street are the two busiest shopping streets in Dublin City. Both pedestrianised. Majority use public transport, 17% of recreation & social people use their cars to get in to the city.

Here's a handy study from the NTA showing most customers don't in fact drive

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/majority-of-spend-in-dublin-and-cork-cities-generated-from-people-using-sustainable-modes-of-transport/

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955943#Comment_120955943

isn't it funny how they'll drive to a shopping centre and then walk for 15 minutes from the car park to the shop they want to visit. Shopping centres like Liffey Valley etc. are basically the same as pedestrianised town centres, perhaps with more parking options.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955969#Comment_120955969

More parking options but no soul, no history, culture or smells. Air conditioned, artificial cathedrals for the Starbuck starstruck sheep to throw their money at only to come home and complain about their post office closing.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955820#Comment_120955820

Not a hope would Limerick attract B&Q or HN, sure where would you park while shopping there? In recent history, Debenhams, Argos, McDonalds all gone from the city, replaced by - nothing, empty units which suggests nobody wants them either. Compare that to shopping centres on the outskirts who are vacant for 6 months at a time, maximum

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955812#Comment_120955812

There's no Grafton Street in Limerick but Henry Street has had businesses thriving for years, Jack Fitzgeralds, Dunnes, Limerick youth services to name a few and some of Henry Street has 4 lanes so maybe you're proving my point

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956176#Comment_120956176

I’m talking about the pedestrian streets in Dublin, which don’t seem to experience the kind of disastrous outcome you predicted, given that they have some of the highest retail rents in Europe.

It’s almost as if pedestrians spend money?

https://www.highstreetstaskforce.org.uk/resources/details/?id=0b15074f-f661-42c6-855e-42408f9b57b5

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956176#Comment_120956176

Limerick Youth Service isn't a real shop and Dunnes will thrive anywhere so stop talking sht. Henry St. recently had closures too like Cucina and generally is not a shopping street as it has very little in that regard except a small cluster down one end. Also Henry St. has no on street parking so how does it prove your anti pedestrianisation argument.

Of what you listed above Debenhams and Argos folded as companies and Debenhams has been filled with a hotel.

Yes McDonald's closed a week ago (so not exactly sitting derelict for ages) and so did Bbs but the Bbs unit was very quickly snapped up and is going to be a Nero and the long long derelict Dunnes unit is to be a fast food. Cavavin has just moved into the Taylor Blue unit on Bedford Row.

Pure and utter bollox acting to try tell people here not familiar with Limerick the above sh1t.

Wildly Boaring

Park and ride is what limerick needs.

Tunnel and ringroad are the main conveniences to the city.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120954186#Comment_120954186

Yet another anti-car/motorist thread in a forum supposedly dedicated to ALL forms of transport...

I think it is more to discuss the allocation of road space as opposed to being anti-car but if you want to feel that way, then go right ahead.

We live in a country where public transport barely works in our capital and second city - and then only if you're willing to put up with the delays, slow progress, mid-journey changes to get from A to B, anti-social behaviour issues, and of course it's not exactly cheap.

The bulk of the delays to PT in urban areas is from people in cars.

Successive governments have neglected investment in public transport. Now we're investing in it, there is huge opposition towards any kind of road space reallocation in favour of PT. This is because in general the only place that space can come from is from regular traffic lanes.

Outside of those cities public transport is even more spotty and expensive (if available at all) and thus impractical for anyone not making a pleasure trip with plenty of time to do it - therefore the car becomes the only practical option, especially given the (in case some forgot) ongoing housing crisis and need to get to work, school, college or elsewhere reliably and predictably.

Same issue - lack of investment and an encouragement of a culture of car dependency. This culture has allowed a parallel culture of urban sprawl where people become boxed into a lifestyle where they need a car to do anything. Governments then invested in roads, etc and failed even further to invest in public transport

Running a car isn't cheap either - insurance, tax, servicing, fuel - but people do it because in many cases they have no other viable choices. I think that there a lot of people on forums like this who resent the idea that not everyone has the time or inclination to spend anymore of their time, or lengthening their day, to getting around from wherever they are to wherever they need to be.

But the culture of car dependency which includes prioritisation of motorised traffic over PT & AT has meant that many families now need a car and have no choice but to make this investment.

Plus all that money from car sales, servicing, parts and the rest goes right back into the Government coffers to be spent on all those cycle lanes and bollards and greenways let's not forget. We don't do ring-fencing.. it all comes out of the same pot.

ah, there's the bit of spite coming through. Our taxes pay for loads of stuff. They pay for roads, water, housing, healthcare, social welfare, etc. but you feel the need to mention a paltry amount spent on cycle lanes because your argument doesn't really stand up to any real level of objective scrutiny.

Plus... some people actually LIKE cars and ENJOY driving. I know right! How very dare they!!

I like cars and I like driving although with traffic volumes nowadays, it's nigh on impossible to enjoy it. I also enjoy walking and cycling - how dare I!

They should be made walk/cycle everywhere like the rest of "us",

Despite the sense of victimisation by some who are anti-"getting out of a car", nobody has suggested this. Even Eamon Ryan, who for some reason manages to boil your blood, hasn't said it!

because... errr.. the environment something,

Well, the planet is in trouble but if you wish to dispute the ample scientific evidence then there are other threads on it.

the need to get into a city infested with feral youth faster..

Are you really trying to link road space allocation to a failure in policing? C'mon, you're better than this level of sillyness!

because it's the "right thing to do" and who do they think they are in their "metal boxes" (I know someone who actually describes motorists like this - despite owning 2 cars themselves, one of which is a pure toy!)

Who honestly cares what they call them? Are you really that insecure?

Get over it. For some people walking, public transport, cycling, sharing or some other mode will suit and be preferred. For others it won't and isn't and there's nothing wrong with that either.

Well then, it is good that you agree with the likes of Eanmon Ryan, which I wasn't expecting! There are many who wish to use improved PT services and as you already know one sure way to improve these services is to provide dedicated space for PT and to remove the blockages along PT routes. Once all those people who wish to use improved PT start using it, then the roads will be a lot emptier for those who either need to drive or choose to drive and you might even start enjoying it again!

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956083#Comment_120956083

Couldn't agree with this more. Large shopping centres are second only to airports as unpleasant places to visit. The same shyte in each one of them.

What bugs me though is that for the last 30 or 40 years we have been building these things away from population centres specifically to attract car drivers but now want everyone to use them via public transport which is spotty at best. I would add all the LIDL/Aldi and Tescos to that aswell. Often built on the outskirts of towns with massive carparks rather than smaller units in the centre of towns where people can walk around. This is what is killing small towns and highstreet shopping, Not cycle lanes or traffic restrictions or Eamonn Ryan.

g g murpho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956278#Comment_120956278

There’s a large enough Tescos in the small town where I live with a centralised population of ca. 10,000.

There’s an acre or two devoted to car parking. There’s a grand total of 7 wheel stands for bikes on the footpath outside the pedestrian entrance to the building. Most of these are taken by Bleeper Bikes. Some of which are vandalised.

There are no Sheffield stands or spots for cargo bikes. Taking out even 10 car spots could open up space for 30 bikes, maybe more.

I live 600 metres from this Tesco. I feel guilty driving my car to lug the weekly messages back. If there were adequate protected bike parking I’d do my shopping with it.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955837#Comment_120955837

Yep. The Great North Road has, for hundreds of years, linked London to the south with Edinburgh to the north via York.

London has been a major city since medieval times.

Owning and maintaining a horse in the past was expensive just like owning and maintaining a car now is expensive. The horse-drawn coach wasn't considered "old technology" until around 1900.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956310#Comment_120956310

Yeah. Small town attitude to bikes, "they're for poor people and for children to play on". It's a shame, I use my car for plenty of things I'd rather not use it for but that's the way people want it.

It's slowly changing where I am in Dublin. None of my family would dream of driving in to the city centre now but we all go in frequently on public transport as it slowly takes priority over the private car.

g g murpho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956412#Comment_120956412

My dad is in his 60’s. He’s retired.

He was very much in the pro car camp. Now he gets the bus or train into Dublin city fir a ramble. He hasn’t looked back.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956278#Comment_120956278

There's a smaller inner city Lild about 15 mins walk from my house. It's horrible, hard to move around inside and.

I prefer to catch the bus to a larger one in the suburbs, because its so much nicer and likely to have things in stock.

Pawwed Rig

glitch

magicbastarder

Plus... some people actually LIKE cars and ENJOY driving. I know right!

on this point. that's great. but the roads aren't provided for your enjoyment. if you can get your enjoyment out of their use, great, but enjoying a drive is not going to be high on the list of deliverables when transport infrastructure is being planned.

the thing is - provision for other forms of transport and driving are not inimical enemies. the netherlands is considered one of the most car friendly countries in europe, for example. and i suspect the sort of driving you enjoy is not the sort of driving which is going to be impacted by what people are talking about in this thread - they're not going to put a 24 hour bus lane through the healy pass, for example.

OP the addition of the car to the picture was seamless you would hardly know it wasn't there to begin with.

Antisocial behavior and the shuttering of shops due to high rents is what is killing off town/city centers. Overpriced coffee shops and restaurants are the only places thriving. No amount of pedestrian streets or cycle lanes will aid with the recovery. Its not like the current system of footpaths and pedestrian crossings is terribly inconvenient for pedestrians.

Most retail parks are better maintained and have security onsite to minimize any unpleasantness that might occur. Head into the city center you can watch scrotes shoot-up or thump the heads off each other for hours without any intervention from the Gardai.

The problem with public transport in Ireland is that its not really much more cost effective than having a car and for the majority it is also less convenient, as a result it will be difficult to convince people to give up their cars in favor of public transport, cycling and walking.

Two examples for you:

I was heading to Dublin a few weeks back looked into my public transport options (taxi to and from stations included) cost by bus 65 euros cost by train 75 euros return cost by car including parking and tolls 45 euros and probably 1.5 hours less travel time by car.

I walk to work and get the bus when the weather is bad. I've only gotten the bus about 40 times this year but on two occasions the bus had to stop and wait for the guards due to antisocial behavior. Last winter when the weather was really cold a number of busses didn't run as drivers didn't turn up for work and those that did run were at capacity and didn't stop to collect people at the stops if I didn't have a car I would have struggled to get to work for two weeks as the paths were not gritted and taxis were in short supply.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058308472/a-wonderful-illustration-showing-how-much-public-space-we-ve-handed-over-to-cars

As a pedestrian, I usually get out of the way of cattle, horses, cycles, bikes, cars and lorries as they are all bigger. Experience tells me that they'll do more damage to me than I to them. It's called self preservation, I'd recommend it.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956860#Comment_120956860

Antisocial behavior and the shuttering of shops due to high rents is what is killing off town/city centers. Overpriced coffee shops and restaurants are the only places thriving. No amount of pedestrian streets or cycle lanes will aid with the recovery. Its not like the current system of footpaths and pedestrian crossings is terribly inconvenient for pedestrians.

I assume that you're referring to smaller towns rather than cities here. The reality is that most shops that existed in these towns cannot compete with the chains that exist in retail parks. The overpriced coffee shops exist everywhere but to be fair, in the retail parts its usually the poxy piss served up by those coffee chains.

The problem with public transport in Ireland is that its not really much more cost effective than having a car and for the majority it is also less convenient, as a result it will be difficult to convince people to give up their cars in favor of public transport, cycling and walking.

You are agreeing with the Op then - cars have been prioritised over PT. However, those who choose to drive into congested urban areas cannot continue to be prioritised and as you can see, this is changing through measures such as road space reallocation.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956240#Comment_120956240

Agreed we shouldn't be telling people unfamiliar with Limerick untruths so lets sort these out

Debenhams has been filled with a hotel

There's planning permission for a hotel on that site but nobody has touched it since debenhams closed 3 years ago,

Debenhams and Argos folded as companies

Argos pulled out of the pedestrianised Cruises street in September 2020 but kept Childers Rd and Crescent shopping centres open

But perhaps rather than using one off examples we should be contrasting the long term dereliction in our city centre with the few weeks you see between shops closing and another opening in the Crescent

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956954#Comment_120956954

Go for it so.

Give me some facts and figures relating to the number of derelict units on the recently pedestrianised streets in Limerick compared to before.

The streets in question are O'Connell St., Thomas St., Catherine St. Aand Bedford Row. For people who don't Limerick these are the streets that were once 2 lane traffic and 2 lane parking which are now fully pedestrianised or down to 1 lane and no parking.

Cruises St. and that Argos have nothing got to do with the conversation about road space as it was part of a manufactured shopping street that never had road. Cruises St. has historic problems unrelated to this thread but Argos leaving was definitely part of its roll back and eventual demise after Covid.

Are you honestly going to claim the streets above have more dereliction than before pedestrianisation.

Go on there now and throw out something beyond the one off examples.

Padraig Mor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955955#Comment_120955955

That study really isn't the slam dunk you think it is.

Looking at the Cork figures at least (Dublin is presumably roughly comparable) it shows that the overwhelming majority of spend in the city centre comes from those arriving by bus and by car (with those arriving by car spending 50% more per person than those arriving by bus - more people arrive by bus, but the same amount in total is spent by both groups). The hallowed cyclists beloved of so many here spend a miserly €13 per person - lower than any other group - only one third of that spent by walkers and less than a seventh of that spent by those arriving by car. There are so few cyclists and they spend so little that their proportion of the total Cork daily spend is a whopping......wait for it.......0% when rounded off! Motorists and bus passengers in contrast make up 43% each with walkers and rail and taxi passengers (the latter pair have very low numbers, but high spend per person) rounding off the figures. Seems to me that this survey indicates we should rip up cycle lanes in favour of more bus / car lanes.........

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956860#Comment_120956860

Good comparison but when considering cost effectiveness make sure you also considering the costs of buying (or rather the depreciating value) of a car, the maintenance, the tax and the insurance

For my own example I travel 45km each way to work, so every day it costs me

Depreciation - 4k/year - €11

Tax (electric car) - €120/year - €0.33

Insurance - €500/year - €1.37

14kWh of electricity to do 90km @25c/kWh home night rate - €3.50

Tyres and other maintenance - €500/year - €1.37

Daily cost of commute to work in an EV = €17.57

Price of daily bus return from home = €1.60 from home to bus station + €18.50 return bus + €1.60 from station to home = €21.70

So for me personally it still works out cheaper

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956991#Comment_120956991

As car access to cities are reduced & public transport & cycle infrastructure improves you'll see that change. We've seen it here in Dublin. People won't bother with the car, they'll get the bus in.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120957069#Comment_120957069

It works well in London and New York as well, but it won't work in smaller cities, towns or villages

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120957146#Comment_120957146

You'll see Cork & Galway will follow suit and start reducing car access. People are fearful of change, but soon get used to it and use public transport.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058308472/a-wonderful-illustration-showing-how-much-public-space-we-ve-handed-over-to-cars

Am living in a city in Northern Europe.

Cars exist, there's plenty of them but the authorities made decisions years ago to make other forms of transport more attractive.

It is noticeable in a couple of interesting ways.

• Segregated cycle lanes
• Some cycle lanes have sensors to influence the lights crossing a road to favor the cyclist.
• Cyclists have right of way through some roundabouts, even if there is a motor vehicle on the roundabout.
• Residential areas have signs saying cars are guests and cyclists/pedestrians have right of way.
• Red road surface indicates all areas where cars must yield to more vulnerable road users.
• Buses trigger traffic lights to allow them to proceed ahead of cars if they need to cross car lanes to get to a dedicated bus lane.
• Private cars banned from city center but buses permitted.
• Absolutely oodles of bike parking.
• Can park your bike in train station for 24 hrs for free, after that its less than 2 euro/day.
• Integrated ticketing - Buses, trains, trams, bike parking all operate with same contactless card.
• Very high quality bike sharing and rental schemes

Because of the success they have had here, they've been able to turn some two lane roads within the city in to single lanes with the overall volume of people using the space daily increasing and it being a much more pleasant environment overall. I have access to a pool car at work if I need one for a trip, weekend or whatever but I think this is a much more pleasant environment than being stuck in traffic like so many people experience in Ireland on a daily basis.

I've said it on other threads here, but living here so far makes me think a lot about how Irish (and other countries) cities are failing their populations so much in having private car centric transport priorities.

Regionally, Ireland is not cut out for mass public transport yet, but steps should be moving towards that starting with the cities and then the larger towns and so on. 50% of all car journeys are under 2 miles, we should be encouraging people to make those outside of their car as much as possible.

Given how much cars costs, how little they are used, and how unsatisfactory city driving often is with them, people should be crying out for a way to cut down on them. One of the biggest scams pulled on society the last 50 years was the car industry convincing people spending so much of their income on something they used so little was something people should aspire to.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956310#Comment_120956310

Just roll the trolley home with the groceries and drop it back later or else get one of the little Granny trolleys to carry the stuff home in