A wonderful illustration showing how much public space we’ve handed over to cars

g g murpho

Why is so much space devoted to and handed over to the private car?

Why is there a persistent mindset that the “car has right of way”?

Why do cars have priority at crossings? Why don’t drivers have to push a button to cross the intersection instead of pedestrians?

Allinall

Yawn. Not again.

monument

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952065#Comment_120952065

This goes for everybody -- if you don't feel like contributing to a thread productively, just stay away from it.

-- moderator

Motorists stopping to push a button might create more traffic jams 😉 More cars in one place, admittedly stood still.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058308472/a-wonderful-illustration-showing-how-much-public-space-we-ve-handed-over-to-cars

To the first question: You know why. People need to be able to travel from A to B - including commuting for jobs. Motorised transport enables travel over medium to long distances.

Alternative is an expanded rail network, expanded public transport, an underground, a Metro. Preferably all of these things.

All fair points about pedestrians vs cars. But neither here nor there in a sense. We could build more pedestrian bridges over major roads if we were bothered, separating people from automobiles.

g g murpho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952141#Comment_120952141

That’ll reduce unnecessary journeys into cities then 😉😉

elperello

https://www.midlands103.com/news/midlands-news/new-bridge-opened-in-a-major-midlands-town/

Not all bad news.

magicbastarder

just slightly irritating that it's that chocolate teapot 'daddy got me my job' chambers getting the publicity.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952210#Comment_120952210

You only build pedestrian bridges over roads if motor traffic is the priority. That ship has sailed

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952992#Comment_120952992

Have you read the thread?

A pedestrian bridge over a road was opened in Athlone this morning.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953052#Comment_120953052

Sorry for any confusion but the new bridge in Athlone is over the Shannon River.

It's relevance to the thread is that it provides a separate crossing for pedestrians and cyclists.

The motor traffic will continue to use the existing bridge nearby.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953088#Comment_120953088

Okay thanks

growleaves

The earliest horse-drawn vehicles first appeared in approximately 3000BC according to historians, when Mesopotamians drove horse-drawn chariots into battle.

Since the concept of automated transport can't be uninvented, I don't see it going away.

Micro-managed cities of the future may be pedestrian-only but not everywhere will be.

g g murpho

Anywhere a dipped kerb exists, pedestrians should have priority.

Mrs OBumble

When did cars become sentient beings, doing things for themselves, rather than being tools for conveying people to places quickly?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953341#Comment_120953341

Do you ask the same question every time you read a news article telling you that a car hit a pedestrian or hit a tree?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953052#Comment_120953052

Thats a funny looking road

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953604#Comment_120953604

See comment below

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953088#Comment_120953088

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953253#Comment_120953253

Sorry, but I'm finding it hard to take you seriously. A length of road in a residential area has dipped kerbs at every gate. Your scenario would lead to a farcical and dangerous situation.

g g murpho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953717#Comment_120953717

Then drive at a speed that allows you to stop in the distance you can see is clear.

Most of the dipped kerbs in short succession are in housing estates where you should be driving slowly anyway.

Slow down to 20 km/h if necessary (the speed limit is 30 km/h) in housing estates. No need to drive faster.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953717#Comment_120953717

That farcical and dangerous situation is the legal requirement at present. Pedestrians always have priority (dipped kerbs or not) as they are squishy

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953799#Comment_120953799

That priority is only at junctions and crossings, not at every gate of every house. I agree that motorists should exercise extra care in residential areas but pedestrians do not automatically have legal priority just because the kerb is dipped. And I speak as an ardent pedestrian who doesn't drive much.

_Kaiser_

Yet another anti-car/motorist thread in a forum supposedly dedicated to ALL forms of transport...

We live in a country where public transport barely works in our capital and second city - and then only if you're willing to put up with the delays, slow progress, mid-journey changes to get from A to B, anti-social behaviour issues, and of course it's not exactly cheap.

Outside of those cities public transport is even more spotty and expensive (if available at all) and thus impractical for anyone not making a pleasure trip with plenty of time to do it - therefore the car becomes the only practical option, especially given the (in case some forgot) ongoing housing crisis and need to get to work, school, college or elsewhere reliably and predictably.

Running a car isn't cheap either - insurance, tax, servicing, fuel - but people do it because in many cases they have no other viable choices. I think that there a lot of people on forums like this who resent the idea that not everyone has the time or inclination to spend anymore of their time, or lengthening their day, to getting around from wherever they are to wherever they need to be. Plus all that money from car sales, servicing, parts and the rest goes right back into the Government coffers to be spent on all those cycle lanes and bollards and greenways let's not forget. We don't do ring-fencing.. it all comes out of the same pot.

Plus... some people actually LIKE cars and ENJOY driving. I know right! How very dare they!! They should be made walk/cycle everywhere like the rest of "us", because... errr.. the environment something, the need to get into a city infested with feral youth faster.. because it's the "right thing to do" and who do they think they are in their "metal boxes" (I know someone who actually describes motorists like this - despite owning 2 cars themselves, one of which is a pure toy!)

Get over it. For some people walking, public transport, cycling, sharing or some other mode will suit and be preferred. For others it won't and isn't and there's nothing wrong with that either.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120954186#Comment_120954186

"You'll eat those crumbs and be happy damnit"

Red Silurian

Good point but in a counter-argument if you look at Limerick City where

The main thoroughfare has been reduced from 3 lanes with 1 parking to 1 lane of traffic + bus lane with no parking. Also cycle lanes are being built on many existing roads

It's lovely to walk along the very wide footpaths but there's nothing to do anymore as so many businesses have closed. The city is literally dying on its feet from a business point of view with so many derelict buildings now an eyesore

magicbastarder

look at dublin - which streets do best in terms of retail? the ones heavily trafficed by motor vehicles, or the ones heavily trafficed by pedestrians?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955748#Comment_120955748

Somebody should warn the businesses on Grafton St and Henry St about their imminent closure.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955748#Comment_120955748

Ah the good old horsesht "Limerick is dying" line. Usually spouted by people who think coffee shops and restaurants are not legitimate business and think the city centre can magically attract B&Q Harvey Norman.

Ratio of derelict properties on O'Connell St. hasn't changed one bit since the road changed.

The only recent difference in Limerick is Thomas/Catherine St. have gotten busier since pedestrianisation.

blackbox

Roads were built for horse drawn vehicles long before cars existed.

That being said, I totally agree that vehicles should not be parked on public footpaths.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955782#Comment_120955782

I agree with regards to Dublin but in many towns it's the other way round. Lack of access for motor vehicles has led to countless businesses closing or moving location in towns all around the country. We have a couple of pedestrianised areas locally and the businesses are at less than 60% occupancy while the areas conducive to driving are thriving.

blackbox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955782#Comment_120955782

I suspect that shopping centres that provide convenient parking do the most business - apart from high end small goods (handbags, watches etc.) or items that will be delivered by the supplier.

Thelonious Monk

Some things are changing for the better. Along the new bike path into the city centre in North Strand in Dublin they have raised pedestrian crossings that look like a continuation of the footpath across some of the side streets. Which means the car has to go over the raised footpath instead of the pedestrian having to step down onto the road and then back up on the other side. You may thing it's a tiny detail but this would make a difference for older people or people with disabilities. I mean why the hell were pedestrians the people expected to make the extra effort instead of the person in the warm car not expending any energy?

Here's what I'm talking about in North Strand, not quite finished when google took this image but you get the idea.

We really did have it backwards for a while but hopefully pedestrians are put first in urban areas going forward.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955838#Comment_120955838

People refusing to live in towns & villages is what's killing the butcher, post office, baker, small businesses. Everyone wants their one off house, this leads to car dependency. Lazy, overweight, car dependent people want huge carparks & outlet shopping, they won't go near towns & villages, it might mean walking more than 200 metres.

That's what's really killing rural towns & villages.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955843#Comment_120955843

Grafton street and Henry street are the two busiest shopping streets in Dublin City. Both pedestrianised. Majority use public transport, 17% of recreation & social people use their cars to get in to the city.

Here's a handy study from the NTA showing most customers don't in fact drive

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/majority-of-spend-in-dublin-and-cork-cities-generated-from-people-using-sustainable-modes-of-transport/

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955943#Comment_120955943

isn't it funny how they'll drive to a shopping centre and then walk for 15 minutes from the car park to the shop they want to visit. Shopping centres like Liffey Valley etc. are basically the same as pedestrianised town centres, perhaps with more parking options.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955969#Comment_120955969

More parking options but no soul, no history, culture or smells. Air conditioned, artificial cathedrals for the Starbuck starstruck sheep to throw their money at only to come home and complain about their post office closing.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955820#Comment_120955820

Not a hope would Limerick attract B&Q or HN, sure where would you park while shopping there? In recent history, Debenhams, Argos, McDonalds all gone from the city, replaced by - nothing, empty units which suggests nobody wants them either. Compare that to shopping centres on the outskirts who are vacant for 6 months at a time, maximum

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955812#Comment_120955812

There's no Grafton Street in Limerick but Henry Street has had businesses thriving for years, Jack Fitzgeralds, Dunnes, Limerick youth services to name a few and some of Henry Street has 4 lanes so maybe you're proving my point

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956176#Comment_120956176

I’m talking about the pedestrian streets in Dublin, which don’t seem to experience the kind of disastrous outcome you predicted, given that they have some of the highest retail rents in Europe.

It’s almost as if pedestrians spend money?

https://www.highstreetstaskforce.org.uk/resources/details/?id=0b15074f-f661-42c6-855e-42408f9b57b5

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956176#Comment_120956176

Limerick Youth Service isn't a real shop and Dunnes will thrive anywhere so stop talking sht. Henry St. recently had closures too like Cucina and generally is not a shopping street as it has very little in that regard except a small cluster down one end. Also Henry St. has no on street parking so how does it prove your anti pedestrianisation argument.

Of what you listed above Debenhams and Argos folded as companies and Debenhams has been filled with a hotel.

Yes McDonald's closed a week ago (so not exactly sitting derelict for ages) and so did Bbs but the Bbs unit was very quickly snapped up and is going to be a Nero and the long long derelict Dunnes unit is to be a fast food. Cavavin has just moved into the Taylor Blue unit on Bedford Row.

Pure and utter bollox acting to try tell people here not familiar with Limerick the above sh1t.

Wildly Boaring

Park and ride is what limerick needs.

Tunnel and ringroad are the main conveniences to the city.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120954186#Comment_120954186

Yet another anti-car/motorist thread in a forum supposedly dedicated to ALL forms of transport...

I think it is more to discuss the allocation of road space as opposed to being anti-car but if you want to feel that way, then go right ahead.

We live in a country where public transport barely works in our capital and second city - and then only if you're willing to put up with the delays, slow progress, mid-journey changes to get from A to B, anti-social behaviour issues, and of course it's not exactly cheap.

The bulk of the delays to PT in urban areas is from people in cars.

Successive governments have neglected investment in public transport. Now we're investing in it, there is huge opposition towards any kind of road space reallocation in favour of PT. This is because in general the only place that space can come from is from regular traffic lanes.

Outside of those cities public transport is even more spotty and expensive (if available at all) and thus impractical for anyone not making a pleasure trip with plenty of time to do it - therefore the car becomes the only practical option, especially given the (in case some forgot) ongoing housing crisis and need to get to work, school, college or elsewhere reliably and predictably.

Same issue - lack of investment and an encouragement of a culture of car dependency. This culture has allowed a parallel culture of urban sprawl where people become boxed into a lifestyle where they need a car to do anything. Governments then invested in roads, etc and failed even further to invest in public transport

Running a car isn't cheap either - insurance, tax, servicing, fuel - but people do it because in many cases they have no other viable choices. I think that there a lot of people on forums like this who resent the idea that not everyone has the time or inclination to spend anymore of their time, or lengthening their day, to getting around from wherever they are to wherever they need to be.

But the culture of car dependency which includes prioritisation of motorised traffic over PT & AT has meant that many families now need a car and have no choice but to make this investment.

Plus all that money from car sales, servicing, parts and the rest goes right back into the Government coffers to be spent on all those cycle lanes and bollards and greenways let's not forget. We don't do ring-fencing.. it all comes out of the same pot.

ah, there's the bit of spite coming through. Our taxes pay for loads of stuff. They pay for roads, water, housing, healthcare, social welfare, etc. but you feel the need to mention a paltry amount spent on cycle lanes because your argument doesn't really stand up to any real level of objective scrutiny.

Plus... some people actually LIKE cars and ENJOY driving. I know right! How very dare they!!

I like cars and I like driving although with traffic volumes nowadays, it's nigh on impossible to enjoy it. I also enjoy walking and cycling - how dare I!

They should be made walk/cycle everywhere like the rest of "us",

Despite the sense of victimisation by some who are anti-"getting out of a car", nobody has suggested this. Even Eamon Ryan, who for some reason manages to boil your blood, hasn't said it!

because... errr.. the environment something,

Well, the planet is in trouble but if you wish to dispute the ample scientific evidence then there are other threads on it.

the need to get into a city infested with feral youth faster..

Are you really trying to link road space allocation to a failure in policing? C'mon, you're better than this level of sillyness!

because it's the "right thing to do" and who do they think they are in their "metal boxes" (I know someone who actually describes motorists like this - despite owning 2 cars themselves, one of which is a pure toy!)

Who honestly cares what they call them? Are you really that insecure?

Get over it. For some people walking, public transport, cycling, sharing or some other mode will suit and be preferred. For others it won't and isn't and there's nothing wrong with that either.

Well then, it is good that you agree with the likes of Eanmon Ryan, which I wasn't expecting! There are many who wish to use improved PT services and as you already know one sure way to improve these services is to provide dedicated space for PT and to remove the blockages along PT routes. Once all those people who wish to use improved PT start using it, then the roads will be a lot emptier for those who either need to drive or choose to drive and you might even start enjoying it again!

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956083#Comment_120956083

Couldn't agree with this more. Large shopping centres are second only to airports as unpleasant places to visit. The same shyte in each one of them.

What bugs me though is that for the last 30 or 40 years we have been building these things away from population centres specifically to attract car drivers but now want everyone to use them via public transport which is spotty at best. I would add all the LIDL/Aldi and Tescos to that aswell. Often built on the outskirts of towns with massive carparks rather than smaller units in the centre of towns where people can walk around. This is what is killing small towns and highstreet shopping, Not cycle lanes or traffic restrictions or Eamonn Ryan.

g g murpho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956278#Comment_120956278

There’s a large enough Tescos in the small town where I live with a centralised population of ca. 10,000.

There’s an acre or two devoted to car parking. There’s a grand total of 7 wheel stands for bikes on the footpath outside the pedestrian entrance to the building. Most of these are taken by Bleeper Bikes. Some of which are vandalised.

There are no Sheffield stands or spots for cargo bikes. Taking out even 10 car spots could open up space for 30 bikes, maybe more.

I live 600 metres from this Tesco. I feel guilty driving my car to lug the weekly messages back. If there were adequate protected bike parking I’d do my shopping with it.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955837#Comment_120955837

Yep. The Great North Road has, for hundreds of years, linked London to the south with Edinburgh to the north via York.

London has been a major city since medieval times.

Owning and maintaining a horse in the past was expensive just like owning and maintaining a car now is expensive. The horse-drawn coach wasn't considered "old technology" until around 1900.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956310#Comment_120956310

Yeah. Small town attitude to bikes, "they're for poor people and for children to play on". It's a shame, I use my car for plenty of things I'd rather not use it for but that's the way people want it.

It's slowly changing where I am in Dublin. None of my family would dream of driving in to the city centre now but we all go in frequently on public transport as it slowly takes priority over the private car.

g g murpho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956412#Comment_120956412

My dad is in his 60’s. He’s retired.

He was very much in the pro car camp. Now he gets the bus or train into Dublin city fir a ramble. He hasn’t looked back.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956278#Comment_120956278

There's a smaller inner city Lild about 15 mins walk from my house. It's horrible, hard to move around inside and.

I prefer to catch the bus to a larger one in the suburbs, because its so much nicer and likely to have things in stock.

Pawwed Rig

glitch

magicbastarder

Plus... some people actually LIKE cars and ENJOY driving. I know right!

on this point. that's great. but the roads aren't provided for your enjoyment. if you can get your enjoyment out of their use, great, but enjoying a drive is not going to be high on the list of deliverables when transport infrastructure is being planned.

the thing is - provision for other forms of transport and driving are not inimical enemies. the netherlands is considered one of the most car friendly countries in europe, for example. and i suspect the sort of driving you enjoy is not the sort of driving which is going to be impacted by what people are talking about in this thread - they're not going to put a 24 hour bus lane through the healy pass, for example.

OP the addition of the car to the picture was seamless you would hardly know it wasn't there to begin with.

Antisocial behavior and the shuttering of shops due to high rents is what is killing off town/city centers. Overpriced coffee shops and restaurants are the only places thriving. No amount of pedestrian streets or cycle lanes will aid with the recovery. Its not like the current system of footpaths and pedestrian crossings is terribly inconvenient for pedestrians.

Most retail parks are better maintained and have security onsite to minimize any unpleasantness that might occur. Head into the city center you can watch scrotes shoot-up or thump the heads off each other for hours without any intervention from the Gardai.

The problem with public transport in Ireland is that its not really much more cost effective than having a car and for the majority it is also less convenient, as a result it will be difficult to convince people to give up their cars in favor of public transport, cycling and walking.

Two examples for you:

I was heading to Dublin a few weeks back looked into my public transport options (taxi to and from stations included) cost by bus 65 euros cost by train 75 euros return cost by car including parking and tolls 45 euros and probably 1.5 hours less travel time by car.

I walk to work and get the bus when the weather is bad. I've only gotten the bus about 40 times this year but on two occasions the bus had to stop and wait for the guards due to antisocial behavior. Last winter when the weather was really cold a number of busses didn't run as drivers didn't turn up for work and those that did run were at capacity and didn't stop to collect people at the stops if I didn't have a car I would have struggled to get to work for two weeks as the paths were not gritted and taxis were in short supply.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058308472/a-wonderful-illustration-showing-how-much-public-space-we-ve-handed-over-to-cars

As a pedestrian, I usually get out of the way of cattle, horses, cycles, bikes, cars and lorries as they are all bigger. Experience tells me that they'll do more damage to me than I to them. It's called self preservation, I'd recommend it.