Immigration to Ireland - policies, challenges, and solutions *Read OP before posting*

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032097#Comment_122032097

Of course incitement to hatred is wrong and deliberately upsetting people is wrong. The absolute disproportionate response to criticism of Islam and the koran is terrifying however, and what is worse is so called liberal people who wouldn't stand for such behaviour were it any other grouping justifying it in the case of Islam. I'm sure you weren't claiming the Dublin riots were a logical consequence of children being attacked. Yet rioting is somehow a logical consequence if a book is burned.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032283#Comment_122032283

Where did I defend rioting or any other violent response,?

You are rowing in incorrectly without reading the thread here .

I am not going to repeat myself or try to defend to somebody who hasn't even read the posts ...look back .

Classic, blaming someone for something they have never said !

lmao10

None of the so called Irish pay-triots would have the balls to burn a koran so I don't see it happening in this country. I'd say it's disrespecting the religion and the analogy of someone burning an Irish flag is a good one but in both cases there shouldn't be any violence towards anyone doing it obviously.

JP Liz V1

Ireland stands to be one of the biggest beneficiaries from the EU Pact on Migration and Asylum, Taoiseach Simon Harris told the Dáil, as Aontú leader Peadar Tóibín challenged him on the cost to the State of the agreement and its impact on sovereignty.

Mr Harris stressed that Ireland will “disproportionately benefit because so many people who come to Ireland seeking refuge come here from what are called secondary movements”, having first applied to another EU member state.

“We are proudly seeking to join the EU migration pact. It is good for the country and for Europe,” he said, adding that it would be debated in the Dáil, Seanad and the Committee on Justice.

Outlining his concerns, Mr Tóibín said the State was already paying tens of millions of euro in fines to the EU but was now seeking to sign up to further EU commitments when “it is already failing on the commitments it signed up to and getting fined” on numerous issues.

The pact was a “significant overhaul in the rules and would result in “a fair but firmer” migration system, said Mr Harris. He said “it is fanciful in the extreme to think that this small little island” could “just go it alone regarding global and EU migration”. He added that it is “a massive crisis of our time. It is a humanitarian crisis and an economic and social challenge and we need to work together”.

Further concern about the EU migration pact was expressed at a Fianna Fáil meeting on Wednesday evening, with party members saying that the agreement needed to be “properly explained” to the public while more countries should be added to the list of safe countries of origin.

Galway West TD Eamon O’Cúiv and Senator Robbie Gallagher also raised the migration pact, seeking a detailed briefing on the issue. Other TDs who spoke on the issue included Seán Haughey and James Browne. Tánaiste Micheál Martin confirmed a briefing would be organised and there would be further discussion on the issue.

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/oireachtas/2024/04/17/ireland-will-disproportionately-benefit-from-eu-migration-pact-but-cost-to-state-unknown-taoiseach/

JP Liz V1

Shaykh Dr Umar Al-Qadri, from the Irish Muslim Council and recent "alleged racist hate attack" is now also independent MEP candidate

If elected, he said that he wants to push for reform of Ireland's migration system, housing for all, climate action and support for small- and medium-sized businesses.

Asked if he would have supported the EU Migration Pact, approved by the European Parliament this week, Dr Al-Qadri said that he would have supported a humane and responsible response to immigration.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2024/0412/1443185-european-elections/

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032133#Comment_122032133

An initial response has been taken down, bizarrely.

Saying that burning a Quran is wrong and violence in response to that is also wrong, legitimises the violence because it legitimises the link between the two and the idea that a violent response is in some way understandable.

It also minimises and legitimises the extreme violence that has occurred in relation to such trivial ‘provocation’. It is appalling.mand disgusting.

It should also go without saying that that commits an act of violence against someone who did something as trivial as burn a tricolour is utter scum.

Again there is no legitimacy. None. People who argue otherwise are dangerous.

engineerws

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031630#Comment_122031630

50 years ago the church had huge power in Ireland. American's worried about Catholic loyalty to the pope.

I've been friends with Iranians and a Palestinian, both lovely. Maybe if the West stopped bombing and killing their friends and family it would easier to integrate.

Patrick2010

They do a good job of killing each other, witness the Sunni/Shia rivalry/suicide bombings along with the Taliban and the various forms of Isis.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033283#Comment_122033283

I don't think foreign wars are relevant to the point, though.

If you take a look at polling toward gay people in the UK, from the Muslim community — not from recent immigrants but second, third-generation Muslims who consider themselves British first and foremost — around 50% believe homosexuality should be illegal and almost the same figure believe that a gay person should not become a teacher. 23% support the introduction of Sharia law into the UK, and almost 40% believe that "wives should obey their husbands", compared to 8% in the wider population.

The problem when it comes to questions on immigration is that exceptions to the rule are used to brush away any legitimate issues. Take your example; that you happen to have been friends with an Iranian and Palestinian. Now I don't doubt that at all, but that's a very small sample size. We cannot rely on individual anecdotes; we need to rely on evidence. The evidence we need to take is from polling in other countries as well as from immigrant groups in other countries that have already tried the experiment.

LGBT rights and women's rights have been fought for, very hard over many decades. If you have mass immigration into the country from populations whose attitudes toward gay people and women are not aligned with our own, then we directly undermine those rights, almost by definition. That's not to say that all people from certain countries are bad, of course not. But that on the whole, values are different. That matters.

In the same way that if I moved to Saudi Arabia tomorrow, my values in favour of gay and women's rights would not suddenly change overnight. In fact, they would never change. And as UK polling shows, even after several generations pass, the values don't suddenly change, either.

So the question becomes: are these the kinds of values and attitudes we want to introduce into the country? Or would it be better to have a controlled immigration system where we can, on the whole, accept people from countries whose values largely align with our values.

That way, we can benefit from immigration in the economic way that we need to, but at the same time ensure that values remain consistent. That seems to be the best of both worlds.

Will0483

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030568#Comment_122030568

If something is legal then, no they should not feel the full force of the law.

By your logic, Graham Linehan should have been jailed for producing Father Ted.

Modern Western civilisation is far from perfect but we don't need to indulge the extremist beliefs of people who are of a completely alien culture and who are now seeking to impose their extremist ideology on us by force.

Europeans will not be cowed into silence any more by useful idiots on the left.

Sunny Disposition

Again, the willful ideological blindness of the left on immigration is staggering.

Looking to explain away this insanity of trying to kill or injure people who mock Allah or the Quran, rather than acknowledge the real issue is the incompatability of the thinking of a not insignificant cohort of Muslims with western civilisation.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033337#Comment_122033337

That wasn't a typical political poll where the general population is surveyed.

While some of the results were worrying, there were very questionable methods used in selecting Muslims for that poll.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/04/12/a-poll-claimed-to-reveal-what-british-muslims-really-think-critics-say-it-failed/

enricoh

Stellar times for the refugee industry. We're set for a 6 fold increase in asylum seekers since pre COVID years of 2017-2019.

Sod tourism and sod the multinationals, this is where the money's at! If anyone has any ideas of how to pay for it when the corporation tax dries up, it'd be most helpful!

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41376634.html

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033337#Comment_122033337

You want to control people's attitudes and values?

And imagine some posters argue against hate speech legislation, you couldn't make up the hypocrisy.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033849#Comment_122033849

I don't want to control people's attitudes and values.

I simply think it's a bad idea to immigrate people into the country whose values do not align with our own, liberal values.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033890#Comment_122033890

Ok, but how are we going to keep out the more extreme elements from the Southern US states?

You know people who want to ban abortion and burn books?

Or those within Hindu cultures who favour arranged and child marriages, or Dalit exclusions?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033764#Comment_122033764

Given that no-ones presented anything close to feasible solutions on how to significantly reduce the number of IPAs, I think we need to look at reducing cost by getting away from private hotels asap.

That and prioritizing employment opportunities for immigrants likely to stay here in the longer term, would be very sensible and practical approaches.

Neither's likely to happen under another FFG government propped up by anti-immigration independents.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033918#Comment_122033918

I'd keep the immigration policy very simple — to ensure that people coming into the country are almost exclusively from countries whose values largely align with our own. For sure, there may be a tiny number of people whose views do not perfectly align but I accept that as an inevitable consequence of immigrating people into the country.

The policy I'm putting forward is not to attain 100% perfection. That's unattainable given the nature and complexity of society and cultures.

But what we can do is decide which countries — on the whole — largely align with our country's values, and act accordingly. That is a far better system than what we currently have. It will be more accurate. For example: immigrating and integrating 200,000 random people from Denmark, given their track record on gay rights and women's rights, would be far easier than immigrating 200,000 random people from Saudi Arabia. It's an unavoidable reality that this is the case. It doesn't make those people bad people, it just means that it's more difficult to integrate when values do not align, or are directly opposed.

I simply do not see the logic of some on the left who rightly campaigned in favour of women's rights and gay rights, to then argue we need to immigrate hundreds of thousands of people into the country who are to varying degrees opposed to both.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033890#Comment_122033890

And everyone in Ireland has the same attitude and values?

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033998#Comment_122033998

No, they don't.

But let's not add to the problem by adding more people with values that are inconsistent with liberal values.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034002#Comment_122034002

But there may be very conservative people living here, who could very much welcome more conservative people living here.

We maybe liberal now, for the last 30 years, but there are very many people living here much longer than that, who would love to return.

So, who exactly gets to decide what attitude and values we want here? You?

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034012#Comment_122034012

All I can do is express my own opinion.

I think it would be a bad idea to introduce homophobic and misogynistic views into society on a mass scale.

It makes no sense, to me at least, to rightly fight for women's rights and gay rights, only then to argue in favour of increasing the population of people who are opposed to both.

Maybe you're right and some people actually want that outcome, but I certainly do not.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034119#Comment_122034119

I think you'll find quite a lot of countries in the global south, and even some wealthier countries, will have a significant number holding opinions which would be considered homophobic, misogynist or intolerant regardless of whether the predominant religion there is Muslim, Christian or Hindu.

Is that what you're proposing then, that we limit somehow limit immigration from all these countries? How would our health service and multinational industries cope?

hotmail.com

Appalling conditions for asylum seekers exposed today. Extra votes for the government?

RTE news : Pest infestation, overcrowding in IP accommodation - HIQA

http://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2024/0418/1444171-hiqa-ipas/

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034391#Comment_122034391

Ideally, as I said, immigration should be promoted from countries largely similar to our own values and culture.

For sure, that may exclude many countries but we have a current net migration of 50,000 - 70,000 per annum. It's doable with those exclusions, even though I think our current net migration rate is probably too high (700,000+ people in 10-years etc.; is the current trajectory).

You cannot assimilate that many people in that timeframe, and society does not have enough GP places, school places, housing etc. to manage that number, that quickly — irrespective of the country of origin.

Tipperary animal lover

Delete

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034604#Comment_122034604

I'd agree with you that our current net migration is too high, especially given the limitations on housing and services.

Realistically I think the only area we can reduce migration is for non-essential employment.

I think you underestimate how many countries you would exclude with your criteria, which would put us at an even greater disadvantage in terms of employing qualified doctors, nurses, potential Gardai etc.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034982#Comment_122034982

I'm all in favour of hiring highly skilled doctors and nurses and so on. The Filipino community, for instance, has contributed enormously to this country and has integrated as well as you could want.

But that itself raises two questions — one, why aren't we investing more in training medical personnel to match demand and two, every time we take in skilled personnel from other countries, we deprive those less well-off countries of medical personnel that they need, too.

In 2000, Lithuania's population was 3.5 million. Today, it is 2.69 million.

Often we talk about immigration from a purely selfish perspective, how it benefits us etc.

What we often fail to take into consideration is the net negative effect that emigration can have on the countries the emigrants came from; how they lose key workers or highly skilled personnel.

zell12

Private accommodation costs ~€76/night to house Ukrainian refugees and asylum seekers. Secretary general of Department of Integration initially refused to publicly reveal figures as 'commercially sensitive'. The Department “out of desperation” overpaid on some hotel and B&B hotel contracts to house migrants. The Department’s “rate card”, which sets out how much is paid per night, was “not always adhered to”, TDs were told.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/state-paying-more-than-twice-as-much-per-night-for-refugee-and-asylum-seeker-accommodation-from-private-providers-than-state-owned-housing/a1177886592.html

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035123#Comment_122035123

I'm glad to hear people from the Philippines are contributing and integrating well.

But I think by your criteria they shouldn't be accepted here.

Like in other Asian countries, Filipino women are stifled by a patriarchal society emphasizing male dominance in family structures and larger social institutions.3 Traditionally, Filipino men are household heads and breadwinners; women are deemed subservient, hence economic abuse is common in VAW cases,4 and a high acceptance of justified wife beating exists.2 Women’s pleasures are considered objects to pursue or control, hence they are regarded as a vulnerability. Few
women seek help because of expectations to be selfsacrificing, thus giving up safety and security in favor of
family reputation. Defying gender norms invites objectification, shame, guilt, and even justification of violence,
hence the culture of victim-blaming.3

Through public debasing of women, condoning rape jokes and sexual remarks, openly harassing female supporters, associating femininity with weakness, and encouraging the military to “shoot women ‘communist rebels’ in the vagina,” the current administration under President Duterte personifies sexism, shaping society’s perception of women. This misogyny is tolerated by many citizens, including some women of power.

https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lanwpc/PIIS2666-6065(22)00086-4.pdf

So I think we can debunk the theory that attitudes held in one country, (which might not even have been correctly recorded), predicate how well groups might integrate in Ireland.

But I agree with you on the negative consequences felt in a home country when people emigrate. I'm not at all in favor of the scale of migration in the world today specifically where people are forced, or feel forced, to migrate. I think we'd be in a different position regarding housing here had we not lost so many construction workers during the last recession. You're right to say we should be producing more health care workers here, but remember we lose many to migration too.