Why I'll say no to a united ireland

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176561#Comment_122176561

You may be addressing downcow, but the forum you are using is a public one with many readers and contributors, you joined an existing conversation.

Nothing you posted there supports what you allege, have you anything else?

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176627#Comment_122176627

Examples of Downcow handwaving away British actions by saying, 'well everyone else was at it' aren't examples of Downcow handwaving away British actions by saying, 'well everyone else was at it'?

Sure, suit yourself pal.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176627#Comment_122176627

I don't know what thread you are reading but Fionn is spot on here. The 'everyone else does it' and the 'few bad eggs' theiries have been offered only recently. + the excusing of Bloody Sunday.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176789#Comment_122176789

He's managed to read directly quoted examples that literally state, 'all armies do it' and come away with the conclusion that it isn't evidence of Downcow handwaving away British violence through whataboutery, Francie.

I don't think there's any convincing someone who will argue that a direct quote from the poster stating what I alleged themself doesn't support what I alleged.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176561#Comment_122176561

You still don't get it, do you?

All governments around the world run informers in criminal and terrorist organisations when the need arises, for the common good. I never said the BA engaged in state sponsored terrorism. As Downcow correctly said, and I agree 100% as did most people during the troubles ( that is why SF got relatively little support then on both sides of the border):

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122175948#Comment_122175948

There were many thousands of riots during the troubles, often with people throwing petrol bombs, and sometimes throwing nail bombs, and sometimes shots being fired by terrorists luring the security services in to ambushes. How do you propose the security services should have kept order / protected themselves / kept hundreds of rioting people at bay? If 120,000 rubber / plastic bullets were fired during the course of the troubles, were any of those 120,000 ever fired if there was not a riot or serious crowd control issue, or by accidental discharge? Of course mistakes were made, accidents happened and the technology for crowd control is not advanced as nowadays ( possibly stun guns, tasers whatever ).

If you pick the one example you did, Stephen Rooney the child in the ground floor flat who was shot, his brother said in his own words that at the time "That night outside our windows was just fire, chaos and gun shots". I condemn the shooting of the child as much as anyone else, but I do find it very difficult to believe anyone did so deliberately.

Generally people did not kill children deliberately. There were exceptions of course: for example the child from Fermanagh killed by the IRA on Mountbatten's boat : many republicans still gloat about that explosion and have no regrets.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177203#Comment_122177203

You still don't get it, do you?

We get it. If other governments do something then it is ok for the British government to do it?

Is that only applicable to the British government though? Does it absolve the Irish government of all you criticise them for?
Could the government of a UI oppress and subjugate and shoot Unionists and claim it was ok because 'other governments do it'?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177203#Comment_122177203

The killing of the children that were on the boat with Mountbatten was one of the worst atrocities committed by the PIRA. The bomb needed to be set off by line of sight detonation, which meant that the bombers involved knew that they were killing children. It was deliberate, callous and cruel to a horrific degree.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177309#Comment_122177309

The killing of the children

at anytime in a conflict is callous and cruel to a horrific degree. Exploiting some of those victims to criticise one side politically is an added obscenity. I suggest you read up on how every single child died in the conflict.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177283#Comment_122177283

No government or police force or army in the world is perfect. In fact democracy or capitalism is not perfect either. Yes, the British government ran informers in criminal and terrorist organizations, so it is not only ok for other governments to do it, but other governments do just that already when the need arises. All governments do it, even democratic govts, for the greater good.

In the last century, the N.I. government was not the most oppressive government on this island if you use the metric of shooting prisoners : DeValera shot some IRA prisoners in Irish jail in the forties. The N.I. government did not shoot prisoners in jail. They did not even "take out" the leaders of the Republican movement, even though the the Republican movement did attack many UK elected politicans, killing some. The IRA did not only shoot prisoners, they sometimes went out of their way to capture them when off duty and then tortured and shot them.

You are asking could the government of a UI shoot Unionists : of course in certain circumstances, as a last resort, that could happen, seeing as they already shot Republicans in the not too distant past eg the 2 people in the car containing the Border Fox at a checkpoint during the troubles. There were armed bank robberies almost every week by Republicans in this state at times also: of course people were killed on both sides who should not have been killed in an ideal world.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177496#Comment_122177496

Could they shoot 14 innocent people dead in the street because two Gardai were shot two days before? Could they collude with the Real IRA or the New IRA to bomb and kill Unionists?

Could they hood men and torture them in jail?

The British government and it's forces did all the above and more when they had alternatives.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177203#Comment_122177203

you are correct Francis that most people are opposed to the deliberate killing of children, but there are some terrorists out there who are not like most people.
Fortunately the IRA made mistakes while planting this command wire, saving the lives of dozens of children.
army mistakes occasionally cost lives, IRA mistakes inevitably saved lives

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/ira-tried-to-massacre-boys-and-girls-brigade-1118713

blanch152

I think what is getting all the good republican posters so riled up at the moment about British Army and British government actions is the news recently that Martin McGuinness was acting on behalf of the British Government.

He sidelined the hardliners, preventing untold numbers of atrocities and then duped the rest of the PIRA into a ceasefire and decommissioning. The morality of it is questionable. Were the numbers saved by McGuinness' actions worth the numbers killed by atrocities he could have stopped. There is going to be years of historical research and historian careers built on looking more closely at that.

Looking back, given that Northern Ireland has been at peace for decades, it appears to be worth it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177626#Comment_122177626

Nobody is trying to excuse the IRA downcow

What you, francis & blanch are doing is nauseatingly trying to excuse the British part in the conflict/war.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177626#Comment_122177626

Of course every right thinking person is opposed to the deliberate murder of children. Where you seem to struggle is in not making excuses for the negligent killing of children.

The only people on this thread I can see making excuses for the killing of children are you and Francis; 'they had no other choice', 'a few bad eggs', 'other governments did it', 'those kids might have planted Provo bombs'.

The PIRA were wrong, they did not kill in my name and I have no problem with condemning each and every person they killed. No equivocation, no pointing to what other rebel forces have done in other countries, no claiming, 'there was no alternative', no saying it was only a few bad Provos.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177686#Comment_122177686

I have seen posters defend the killing of Mountbatten, the children shouldn't have been on the boat stuff.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177708#Comment_122177708

I'll happily state that I think anyone defending that is a lowlife, Blanch. No issue whatsoever for me.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177717#Comment_122177717

There are only a few defending the killing of children on this thread as you pointed out.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177686#Comment_122177686

There were children killed on all sides. Nobody is condoning the killing of children. If there was another "troubles" in a U.I. and 19,000 bombs designed, planted and exploded by paramilitaries, not to mentions thousands of riots, many involving petrol bombs and other potentially lethal missiles (they sometimes had the petrol laced so it would stick to skin), countless shootings and attacks by paramilitaries etc, then it would be expected that unfortunately children would be killed on both sides again.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177807#Comment_122177807

The people who think there was "no alternative" to the IRA campaign must realise than an armed struggle involving 19,000 bombs ( nearly all 19,000 bombs exploded during the troubles were by Republicans) in a campaign to kill people, destroy businesses, property, the economy, tourism etc would inevitably kill children?

Children and families were also affected by the troubles if / when their parents were killed. For example, look at the case of Thomas Niedermayer, who was a German industrialist who was kidnapped by the pIRA in 1973. He died from a violent attack in pIRA custody before being buried secretly. Niedermayer was the managing director of a German factory in Belfast called Grundig.

From Wiki : "Niedermayer's wife, Ingeborg, returned to Ireland in 1990, ten years to the day after her husband's funeral, and booked into a hotel in Bray, where she died by suicide by walking into the sea from an isolated beach.[6] Niedermayer's two daughters, Renate and Gabrielle, also died by suicide, in 1991 and 1994 respectively, with Renate dying in South Africa and Gabrielle in England. Gabrielle's husband, Robin Williams-Powell, killed himself five years later in 1999"

Do you think Niedermayer deserved to be kidnapped and murdered and secretly buried by the pIRA, and his family suffer too? The British security forces were there to mount checkpoints and try to prevent such a thing. They jailed people in large numbers from both sides too, not just one side, and suffered casualties from both sides.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177956#Comment_122177956

Nobody is condoning the killing of children.

Sorry, you are when you make excuses.

The British always had 'an alternative' as the government responsible for the place and with the power, they did not need to take the side of a sectarian bigoted one party statelet. No amount of pointing at others (who take some of the responsibility also) is going to vindicate them.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178021#Comment_122178021

Do not forget when British troops first arrived they were welcomed with cups of tea etc from nationalists. When you mention "one party" statelet, there were elections, just one party was got more votes than the others, same as when there was a referendum in 1973 well over 50% of the electorate ( not just the voters on the day ) voted the same way, to stay in the UK. When you mention sectarian, at least in N.I. there were some Catholics with state jobs like in police and army ( 18% of the UDR at the beginning). The minority shrunk south of the border and increased north of the border: where again do you think minorities were discriminated against? - so it is not as black and white as you think. You always blame the British, the British the British and the loyalists. I never hear you say a bad word against the IRA, for example, only excuses. The British, the British. Oh, and down here, you blame FF/G, being one party (or as bad as one party) who swapped power between themselves for a century or whatever.

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178310#Comment_122178310

You forgot to mention then19,000 bombs!

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178310#Comment_122178310

Do not forget when British troops first arrived they were welcomed with cups of tea etc from nationalists. 

Who were under siege in their own homes and under fire from murderous and out of control Unionists and it's partisan security forces.

They thought, as any citizen would, that the army were there to defend them, not shoot them in the streets or harass and intimidate them, intern them without trial or evidence or shore up their sectarian one party government.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178432#Comment_122178432

Two sides to every story. Not all security forces were partisan, ( 18% of the UDR were Catholic, close to 0% of the Gardai were Protestant in those days). You also fail to mention attacks before that, the 1956-62 IRA campaign etc.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178394#Comment_122178394

Nearly as often as Francie Brady mentions the " sectarian bigoted one party statelet"!

But at least we know who designed, made and planted nearly all those bombs during the troubles. In a U.I. if there were just 10% as many that would still be 1,900. I wonder what shape the country would be in then? Another reason not to vote for a U.I., the point of this thread.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178461#Comment_122178461

So what are you saying now, it was ok for the BA to shoot innocents in the street, kill children, collude, intern and intimidate and harass one community because something happened 10 years before?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178488#Comment_122178488

There was not a 10 year void of no Republian attacks just before Bloody Sunday, or any other time then, so I do not know where you are getting your 10 years from? Did you read in an Phoblocht there were no Republican attacks for 10 years and then everyone in the B.A. went on the rampage? Sorry, it was not like that.

I think every police force in the world has shot innocents at one time or another. Including our own Gardai. Every police force in the world has informers in criminal and terrorist organizations if and when the need arises….if you call that collusion, so be it. Collusion between Gardai and PIRA was found to have occured, see the Smithwick tribunal, so every force colludes. Out of tens of thousands of people, not all are perfect, that is the real world. The real world is not everyone is perfect and mistakes do happen.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178626#Comment_122178626

There was not a 10 year void of no Republian attacks just before Bloody Sunday, or any other time then, so I do not know where you are getting your 10 years from? 

I got it from the poster who posted this:

You also fail to mention attacks before that, the 1956-62 IRA campaign etc

I also never mentioned a 'void'.

You are excusing the shooting dead of innocent people by state forces on several occasions during the conflict/war and all the rest of the stuff they did and no less importantly, didn't do.

Own it.

If they thought it was wrong or it was the work of a few bad eggs - how many faced prosecution, went to jail or had their careers ended?
Start with the killers of the children in the British Army and get back to us.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178661#Comment_122178661

You implied there was a 10 year void because of the question you asked: "it was ok for the BA to shoot innocents in the street, kill children, collude, intern and intimidate and harass one community because something happened 10 years before?"

Where do you get the ten years from?

A lot else happened in the 10 years you or an Phoblocht may not be aware of. For example the first policeman killed in the troubles was killed by loyalists, in Belfast. If loyalists will kill a policeman in Belfast then, I suspect there would be some among them who would not think twice about killing a Garda in a U.I.

Another reason I would not vote for a U.I., the name of this thread.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178744#Comment_122178744

From your post about 1956-1962.

Apparently it was understandable/ok for the British to shoot dead innocents ten years later in 1972. Because all governments do that something something something.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178432#Comment_122178432

There were/are plenty of murderers on both sides in NI, nationalist terrorists had no issue planting bombs to kill kids out enjoying themselves in pubs, innocent mothers taken and made to disappear etc.

If you throw petrol bomb, or rocks, at a heavily armed police/army with intent to harm or kill, then you run the risk of retaliation with deadly force. If a cop in the US today is faced with a rioter with a petrol bomb, they are going to be shot, if the cop doesn’t shoot and a fellow officer is badly hurt or dies, their superiors would want to know why the officer didn’t draw his/her gun.

This is one of the reasons I would vote no every time for a United Ireland, who wants all these nutters in our country, and we would have to pay for the pleasure, leave them to the Brits, it’s their problem.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178800#Comment_122178800

You'll hardly sleep a wink tonight when you find out some of us are already here.