Why I'll say no to a united ireland

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168125#Comment_122168125

at least I am being a realist. I am simply accepting that all governments and army’s in the world run agents, step outside the law, etc, etc.

you, by contrast, spend all your time condemning a foreign government and army in a neighbouring country, while silent on the misdemeanours of you own government.

downcow

I believe it was/is acceptable for government to operate agents to infiltrate terrorist organisations, drug gangs, football firms, etc, etc. do you disagree?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168149#Comment_122168149

I certainly am not 'silent' on my own governments failures. See elsewhere on this forum.

The British are in our country downcow. I am not looking elsewhere to 'compare' them.

You realise you are validating the worst governments in history here?

'Ah sure they all do it'.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168156#Comment_122168156

Typical now you will try to pivot to something nobody was talking about.

But while you are on that subject, how come they knew what the UDR were up to in 1973, (see multiple released papers) but did nothing about them until 1992?
How come they didn't infiltrate what was clearly a corrupt British army hierarchy after Ballymurphy and Derry? How come they tested rubber bullets on one community and your loyal one sometimes, when they knew they were lethal weapons?

The list just goes on and on and on.

'Ah sure others did it, and your government is….'

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168062#Comment_122168062

i don't set it as a bar for just the Brits.

Again, you're dodging the point.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168067#Comment_122168067

The 'Brits' were here long before that. The ancient populations of these islands were more or less one and the same. Humans travelled across from continental Europe to Britain and onto Ireland. And it worked both ways - the Dalriada of Ulster controlled a decent part of Scotland bringing Gaelic with them. One of the prior McMurrough kings of Leinster invaded Wales and claimed jurisdiction of much of England.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168156#Comment_122168156

That isn't the debate.

The debate is whether or not the British army operated in Ireland to keep warring factions apart. This is the assertion you made, which is clearly untrue. The British army waged a ware against the IRA which caused huge collateral damage to people and property in Northern Ireland.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168660#Comment_122168660

If you look at history of the 1956-62 border campaign and the more recent "troubles" you will find it was the IRA who waged the war / armed struggle, in an effort to get the "Brits out". It was not in the British interest in any way to have a terrorist campaign or "war" waged against it. Economically it cost them hugely, and it cost a lot of lives, inc more than a few British politicians. It is to their credit they behaved so honourably - in many other countries in the world they reigning government would have "taken out" the leaders of the terrorist movement who planned, made and exploded 19,000 bombs against it.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122167989#Comment_122167989

If it was an orchestrated campaign they would have taken out Adams & co. Instead they flew them to London in the early seventies to plead with them to stop the violence, but Republicans said the armed struggle would continue until the Brits get out. The British held a referendum in 1973 but well over 50% of the electorate ( not just the voters on the day) voted to stay in the UK. FrancieBrady will crib there was a "boycott" but still voter turnout was considerably higher that we got in our last referendum here, for example.

So what were the British to do? They stood up to the terrorists on both sides: there were plenty of uvf and loyalists in jail as well as republicans. If anything you could say the British were too lenient with terrorists : they let many escape from jail. And Blair gave a few hundred stay out of jail cards, despite their crimes. Here DeValera took a harder line against the IRA : he shot some in jail here in the forties. There was no outcry.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168751#Comment_122168751

Who are you trying to fool here? The British army did not act honourably on Bloody Sunday.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168941#Comment_122168941

So you are judging the conduct of literally hundreds of thousands of people who served in N.Ireland during the troubles by the behaviour of a handful of soldiers caught up in a riot in Derry, shortly after some police ( catholic as well as protestant) were shot dead by the IRA there, and who probably feared for their lives?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/gallery/2010/jun/10/bloodysunday-northernireland

The debris on the ground looks like debris from a riot to me. And where was McGuinness - was he the gunman that Fr Daly ( later Bishop Daly) testified in court that he saw that day, or was he one of McGuinnesses comrades? Are you aware more than a few people are of the opinion that republicans first the first shot, the shot that sparked Bloody Sunday?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/apr/07/bloodysunday.northernireland

I think the mistake the B.A. made was sending paratroopers in to was was likely to be a riot situation at best, or an ambush at worst (as the policemen in Derry just before that found out to their cost when they were ambushed and killed by the IRA). There were countless other riots during the troubles where attempts were made to injure / kill the security forces, but nobody shot at with live ammunition.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169182#Comment_122169182

McGuinness said no such thing. Pathetic excusing of state sponsored violence which was the tip of the iceberg. They did much more than shoot innocent people dead in the street and whitewash and cover it up for 40 years. Their oppression of one community was systemic and ruthless.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169265#Comment_122169265

Others say he said such a thing. How do you know he did not say such a thing? Still believing what you want to believe?

And you did not answer where was McGuinness during the riot on Bloody Sunday - was he the gunman that Fr Daly ( later Bishop Daly) testified in court that he saw that day, or was he one of McGuinnesses comrades?  And do you not think if the IRA had not killed policemen in Derry just before Bloody Sunday, things could and worked out differently? If you were security forces being pelted with missiles just after policemen had been ambushed and killed elsewhere in the same city, would you have felt threatened, especially if you heard a shot?

Of course mistakes were made on Bloody Sunday, but if that is the worst you can find out of so many people who served there ( hundreds of thousands ) over many decades, it says a lot. Show me a police force or security service in the world that did not kill innocent people: they all did.

If the Gardai were trying to control riots in Unionist areas in the event of a U.I., I would say there would be more Bloody Sundays, unfortunately. I doubt if they would be as good as the B.A generally was, if they were under almost daily attack, 19,000 bombs not to mention gun attacks by people in civilian clothes etc.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169330#Comment_122169330

You clearly have not read the findings of an exhaustive inquiry.

Your excusing of what happened is pathetic as is downcow's 'sure all governments do it' one.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169346#Comment_122169346

I most certainly have read the findings of the 200 million inquiry as well as the inquiry before that, when memories were fresher. Plus I keep an open mind and consider the overall picture eg how the IRA ambushed and killed some police in Derry just before Bloody Sunday. I also take in to account what agent McGuinness is said to have said.

You did not answer the questions: who was the gunman that Fr Daly ( later Bishop Daly) testified in court that he saw that day, or was he one of McGuinnesses comrades?  And do you not think if the IRA had not killed policemen in Derry just before Bloody Sunday, things could and worked out differently? If you were security forces being pelted with missiles just after policemen had been ambushed and killed elsewhere in the same city, would you have felt threatened, especially if you heard a shot?

Suckler

Another day of moving the goal posts I see.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169402#Comment_122169402

memories were fresher.

Dear me, were those the memories of the British Army you are talking about? The 'memories' that were found to be utter lies and fabrication and for which the British government could only apologise for when the game was up.?

You cross examine Fr Daly if you want to know what he was basing his recollection on.

Things would have worked out differently had the British Army not decided to open fire indiscriminately on innocent people. You know those 'professional' soldiers people keep talking about. Those 'professional' soldiers who co-incidentally carried out similar massacres while trying to shore up colonial governments elsewhere.

Suckler

If there were multiple illogical, disingenuous & ill-informed posts trying to re-write and distort the atrocities of the IRA, the usual suspects would be out of the woodwork in force to denounce the posts and poster.

Yet we witness daily made up stories from one simpleton with a childish need to be seen as somehow more informed than those that lived the experiences and have read (and more importantly understood) the various recordings an reports.

The purported 'purveyors of truth' are distinctly quiet on those posts.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169467#Comment_122169467

You still did not answer the questions. Do try harder.

Interesting that Fr. Daly said his statement he had seen a gunman on Bloody Sunday did not go down too well with many in Derry.

There were others too who have a different account to the well know Republican one, for example:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/apr/07/bloodysunday.northernireland

Anyway, as said earlier, you are judging the conduct of literally hundreds of thousands of people who served in N.Ireland during the troubles by the behaviour of a handful of soldiers caught up in a riot in Derry, shortly after some police ( catholic as well as protestant) were shot dead by the IRA there, and who probably feared for their lives. You cannot disagree with that.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169769#Comment_122169769

The Inquiry considered all of that.

Go read it's findings.

Bloody Sunday was the tragic tip of the iceberg of what the British Army and the British security forces did here.

I don't dilute the conduct of the Nazi's by claiming there were 100's of thousands of German soldiers who served.
No sane person would. Why is it an excuse for persistent and systemic British Army behaviour?

The fact is, one community saw them as the aggressors and oppressors. The other STILL sees them as their defenders even though the British government would turn them on them if it came to it.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169854#Comment_122169854

What is "persistent and systemic British Army behaviour", seeing as you mention it?

There were thousands of riots in N.Ireland - do you think it was "persistent and systemic British Army behaviour" to kill people at those, even though some (not all) of the rioters sought to injure and / or kill the security forces if and when they could?

Did you know that often the IRA lured the security forces in to ambushes, like in Derry just before Bloody Sunday, when they attacked and killed some police (both catholic and protestant)?

By comparing the British to the Nazis you are just letting yourself down. Fat lot of good the party you support, S.F, and the IRA-Nazi collaborator Sean Russell, did in defeating the Nazis. Bizarre.

You claim "the fact is, one community saw them as the aggressors and oppressors". In fact most of the people both north and south saw the IRA as aggressors and oppressors, as SF got a relatively small vote during the troubles, north and south. As Fr. Daly ( later Bishop Daly) of Derry himself said, the great oppressors of the Irish were not the British, it was the IRA. (or words to that effect). He should know, he lived in Derry and heard the confession of many a person, I'd say.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169963#Comment_122169963

What is "persistent and systemic British Army behaviour", seeing as you mention it?

You will be hard pressed to find a history that does not acknowledge the abuse of human rights perpretrated by the British and it's security force.
Try this one:

https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/violence/murray.htm

If you think I am going down your rabbit hole of comparing the actions of a sovereign, supposedly democratic state to that of paramilitary groups, forget it.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122170095#Comment_122170095

You will be hard pressed to find a history that does not acknowledge the abuse of human rights perpretrated by the British and it's security force.

The irony of their "argument" (and others) are inadvertently/unconsciously putting forward an argument of 'The British Army had no choice but to….". You know that same statement from SF that they've latched on to again and again and again (copy paste etc.)

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122170095#Comment_122170095

lol. I do not get my history from someone like him who, like yourself, has a huge chip on his shoulder towards anything British. His books and publications are widely thought of as being propaganda, totally biased in favour of IRA terrorists. He complains, for example about plastic bullets and rubber bullets being used against rioters throwing pertol bombs back in the day….but if rubber bullets and plastic bullets were not available to be used, what do you think would have happened? I would blame the people rioting and throwing the petrol bombs - if they were not doing that, plastic or rubber bullets would not have been used. The leaders were not throwing many petrol bombs themselves.;)

Again I ask YOU:

(a)What is "persistent and systemic British Army behaviour", seeing as you mention it?

(b) There were thousands of riots in N.Ireland - do you think it was "persistent and systemic British Army behaviour" to kill people at those, even though some (not all) of the rioters sought to injure and / or kill the security forces if and when they could?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122170252#Comment_122170252

but if rubber bullets and plastic bullets were not available to be used, what do you think would have happened? 

Many of the children killed with impunity by the British Army would not have died. (Eight of the dead were children under 16)

Rubber/Plastic bullets were an experiment by the British in NI specifically.

BBC Spotlight has examined declassified material that reveals the Army knew it was too dangerous to fire the bullets at children, but it continued to do so.

Documents also show the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) was firing a plastic bullet gun never fully cleared for use against people.

But this was kept quiet.

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) declined to comment, citing legal reasons.The Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI), which took over from the RUC following a rebrand in 2001, said the use of the weaponry is now strictly regulated.

The gun firing rubber, and later plastic, bullets was invented for Northern Ireland and designed to deter people rioting by hurting but not killing them.

At least 120,000 were fired during the Troubles.

ANother cover-up/whitewashing by your 'honourable' British state.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122170291#Comment_122170291

So you are admitting you were wrong in your statement about "persistent and systemic British Army behaviour", given that you admit at least 120,000 rubber / plastic bullets were fired. You also have not produced any examples of cases where they were fired but did not need to be fired. They were used as a deterrent against rioters / petrol bombers etc not to get too close. How else do you suggest hordes of rioters / petrol bombers be kept at bay? How else would you propose police or security forces defend themselves against crowds of rioters / petrol bombers, some of whom could be armed with something more lethal than petrol bombs even?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122170477#Comment_122170477

How were riots in Britain handled?

Again 'released papers' show how the British are always prepared to abuse the civil and human rights of minorities and those deemed as inferior or guinea pigs as the Irish were.
Although never used in Britain itself they have been approved only for black-led events if necessary -Notting Hill Carnival and Black Lives Matter protests.

Keep digging Francis you are doing a fine job.

FrancieBrady

GE imminent in the UK apparently. That should shake things up a bit.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122170505#Comment_122170505

In Britain there was not hundreds if not thousands of people who were trying to kill the police there, same as the police in Derry were ambushed and murdered just before bloody Sunday. Huge difference. Rioters in Britain did not fire guns, throw even a fraction of one percent as many petrol bombs etc. Plus security forces in Britain did not have to worry about being lured in to ambushes etc, which they often were. And they could go home to their beds and not be shot in the back when there, or a bomb put under the family car.

Any chance you could answer the questions I asked you?

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169265#Comment_122169265

this is also my answer.