The 2023 All Ireland Senior Football Championship (Sam Maguire Cup)

highgiant1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923211#Comment_120923211

ok but then he scored 3 points. You don't just discount the point he scored from a free because its from a free.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120920818#Comment_120920818

Blame the media all you want (and they need a slap), but there's a few lads in here that need their head checked. It borders on creepy how they go on about him.

That said, yet again the Champions are being overshadowed by the ramblings of a load of blokes who obsess over a 24yo footballer. Can't talk about Gaelic games these days without shoehorning him in somewhere.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923397#Comment_120923397

Read Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung.

It's human nature to believe in heros.

It goes back to the oldest stories, myths and legends.

Clifford is our Achilles or Cu Chulainn.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923486#Comment_120923486

Would you catch yourself on. Christ on a bike.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923495#Comment_120923495

Lol

The_Honeybadger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923055#Comment_120923055

That’s a very good post and I appreciate the more respectful response.

Again, the game has completely changed and we are likely never going back to the days of individual performances from star forwards moving the needle the way it did in the past. Forwards now just don’t get the space and the opportunities for 1 v 1’s that they did when games were much more open and individual battles mattered far more.

The standard of the game has never been higher, players are faster, fitter, stronger and more skilful than ever and the tactics employed are on another level entirely to anything that was there even ten years ago.

Your original point is that the quality was higher back in the 00’s and mine was that it’s not really comparing apples with apples. IMO you are romanticising the 00’s a bit. There was more individual star power but scoring averages across games are higher now than ever before and the best teams have big spreads of scorers with higher efficiency, half backs and even corner backs have never been more important in terms of contributing going forward and it’s not because forwards aren’t good. The bar has been raised significantly IMO and good teams just won’t let an opposing forward take over a game now. Clifford and O’Callaghan are as good as you will get in any era and both were kept under wraps yesterday by good defensive setups that limited them to low percentage opportunities for example.

Gooch and others would be great in any era but how would the likes of Mconville, McFadden and others that you’ve mentioned fare today with packed defences and all of the things employed in the modern game to curb their influence? They would undoubtedly be very good players but I think they’d find the going a hell of a lot tougher than they did back in their day.

I get where you are coming from but you will be waiting a long time for another era with a whole plethora of standout players dominating the scoring in the championship in the way we have had at times in the past unless there are very dramatic rule changes brought in to reverse the way that the game has evolved.

Seadin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923377#Comment_120923377

I actually had forgotten about that one to be fair. I wasn't discounting it. Relax.

gormdubhgorm

Are posters still going on about the fella Fitzsimons put manners on? STILL? The other 29 starting players and subs seem to have been forgotten!

Wouldn’t a more relevant question by how many Dublin players have 8 all irelands?

A great quiz question must less obvious than the three lads with 9.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120922038#Comment_120922038

You're the lad who was calling for Mannion to be taken off. I think your opinions would deserve more than just one asterisk.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120922838#Comment_120922838

That Puck in Kilorglin! The original Kerry goat……

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923743#Comment_120923743

He had missed a couple of kicks and was having a ‘poor’ spell’ which is what I said, I said nothing about taking him off.

As sure as the spire is in O’Connell street the Dub fan will exaggerate.

Both teams had players who were poor at times.

Swaine

"King" Con, Kilkenny, Costello all really good players according to Dublin fans. 0-0 from play combined.

Clifford 2 from play. The knives are out.

He's the best in the land and in 10 years time he'll be nailed on as the best ever to lace a pair of boots.

Gael85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120914805#Comment_120914805

No he is a school principal now in Inchicore. Lives in Slane.

CorkRed93

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923755#Comment_120923755

i hope you enjoyed your weekend after all your yerrahing over the last few weeks😆

Fr Tod Umptious

Kerry's downfall was not Clifford having an off day/being well marshalled.

It was that no one stood up.

Paudie made a fist of it, but no one else did.

I mentioned after the Cork game that they relied too much on Clifford, the cracks were papered over v Louth and Tyrone but they came to light again v Dublin.

Their spread of scorers was far too low.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120924141#Comment_120924141

We got no scores from midfield or our backs.

It was a frustrating game. I felt we left it behind us. Very poor decision making in the final quarter.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120924141#Comment_120924141

I know this will be turned into something it isn't by those waiting to take offence.

Nobody stood up on either team for the majority of the game in fairness, it was nip and tuck all the way. Players like Mannion (yes blanch, he did miss a few) and others were off target and not performing on both sides at times. Read the live comments here and you will see that.

The difference was again Dublin being able to send on the quality of subs that other teams just don't have. They are not on the bench because they are not as good as the starting player they are like for like replacements.

Very few teams will be able to compete against that. Is it an unfair advantage? IMO yes it is in an essentially amateur game.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120924236#Comment_120924236

Nonsense. Look at the last twenty minutes.

One team was three points clear. During the last twenty minutes:

One player scored two crucial points to drive his team back into the game, another scored zero.

One player was deeply involved in play, tackling back, linking play, putting in a shift, the other got needlessly booked along with his marker.

One player saw his team come back to win by two, the other kicked a number of wides as his team fell away.

One player now has seven All-Ireland medals, the other has one.

One player definitely wouldn't make Top 5 GOAT contenders among his team-mates over the last decade, possibly not even Top 10, the other is being pushed as the GOAT by silly posters and media.

One player is Paul Mannion, the other is David Clifford.

Alongside Mannion, the real GOATs, Fenton and Cluxton came to the fore.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120924353#Comment_120924353

GOAT conversations are for boys and girls who read comics TBH. Not interested tbh.

Players in amateur games will have poor games, poor periods in games and the opposite of that too

Players are a part of a team and perform as a result of teamwork. If you can make like for like replacements you can bring players like Fenton into it in the latter stages, that's what happens in tight games Dublin invariably will win.

MacDanger

As always in sports, the post-match analysis is coloured by the result - the game was level after 70 minutes showing that despite all the talk here, there was very very little between the two teams. Dublin just had that little bit of extra quality when it counted, on another day it could have been a different story.

Even looking at those last two Dublin points, Mannion's came from Rock's shot which dropped short and broke kindly; Clifford had a good chance to equalise in the 74th min and uncharacteristically put it wide, then Dublin go down and get a soft-ish free which Rock points. A game of inches

Seadin

There is a danger that Clifford might be off form in the coming seasons like COC now. When Con first came on the scene he was unbelievable. DC greatness for me will be determined in the next 5 years and we will see how he deals with new seasons and new players. Changing players and tactics in the team, injuries etc. He will always have potential but can he keep up what he does or will he be less of an influence in the future years? I think the latter is possible. I think DC is a super player but he's isn't what the media and some Kerry fans make him out to be. He is overhyped I think. There were better players in Kerry before who got less of the limelight, Gooch and Donaghy included. They were both smart and clever players and I think had better heads than Clifford especially under pressure.

robbiezero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120924448#Comment_120924448

Inches is right. Clifford puts that over which 99 times out of 100 he would, and its extra time.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120924236#Comment_120924236

On the match itself I agree with you that it was an odd game both teams had so many chances.

But the 'amateur game' implication. I am not letting that one go. That bench Dublin now have was basically formed from fellas out of retirement, which had serious question marks over them fitness, form etc.

Also Bugler missing out for Dublin was a major loss, it meant there was one Dublin sub less straight away. Similar to how Dublin had to start Kilkenny, Kerry had to start O'Brien.

The fact is all the players are amateurs that is is point number 1. I am sure when Conor McManus was used as sub for your own county you did not feel it was an 'unfair advantage' that other teams could not compete with? Maybe it would be much fairer if Monaghan kept him in the stands altogether?

Number 2 Dublin start with a weaker team than they finish with for that last 20 minute purpose (since the Mayo match).

Kerry had a stronger starting eleven v Dublin but did not make hay in that first 20 minutes which is where they needed to win the game. In fact it could be said that Dublin were unlucky not to be leading going into half time.

Dublin had to 'compete' with a player in David Clifford that very few other teams have to face. He had that bit of magic in the closing of the first half creating that goal for Geaney despite having a 'bad game'. Is that an unfair advantage in an 'amateur game'?

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120924468#Comment_120924468

Pre the 1950's the Dublin AI's many were not Dublin all Ireland's the Dublin team was full of non-Dubs Kerrymen and the like. There was no Dublin identity. Go back through Dublin 1920's teams etc if anyone is in in any doubt. It is 15 AI's from Dublin's total pre-the 1950's which were infiltrated by non-Dubs.

That is why Heffernan coming in the 70's making sure Dublin had that identity was massive, and it turns out it was not only massive for Dublin football but Gaelic football itself. Because that Vincents 'know how' and vintage is still around with everyone's favourite 'Maor Uisce' - Pat Gilroy.

Seadin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120924468#Comment_120924468

Kerry won nothing from 1987-1996 and again from 2015-21. It goes in cycles for all counties. There's also a big difference between winning and being competitive.

Dont Be at It

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923397#Comment_120923397

I agree with you about this Clifford stuff taking over the post match discussion. But... It was initiated by Dublin fans (primarily) taking glee in him having an off day and using the opportunity to question his quality.

All the greats have had off days. No sportsperson ever had had a top class performance on every outing. Diarmuid Connolly is one of the players I most loved watching but he was marked out of it by Lee keegan in that game.

I've no doubt that if he stays injury free, in a few years Clifford will be regarded as one of the top 5 footballers to have played, if not the best. Clifford isn't kerry's problem - it's that there's no one else to step up when he's slightly off form.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120924528#Comment_120924528

I just mean from the perspective of talking about Dublin's advantages, what advantage do Kerry, Mayo and Tyrone have, but we're consistently competitive.

If it wasn't for that great Dublin team, Kerry and Mayo would have a few more AIs.

I don't like talking about Dublin's advantages anyway, we should be talking about the greatness of their players.

All the sacrifice and discipline and hard training they do. All the time that all the coaches put in to their communities.

I'm assuming Dessie Farrel isn't being paid and has given his life to Dublin GAA.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120924676#Comment_120924676

Other than being in denial about the variability of 'amateur' status, I am not sure what your point is.

Conor McManus is a once in a lifetime player, tactically keeping him on the bench means the player on the pitch in his place is NOT a once in a lifetime player.

That is not the same as being able to put on a like for like subs. This is base level stuff.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120924821#Comment_120924821

And Dublin have once in a lifetime players which is why they brought them back. But to go crowing about Dublin's bench when Dublin were struggling all year for a bench. Losing to Derry, struggling to Clare and Cork in league. Roscommon and Derry showed how to play this Dublin side - as did Monaghan

Dublin would have lost Leinster Semi if Kildare had any nous even still. Kildare did not have it between the ears. Simple as that. Consistently inconsistent.

Dublin had to bring the old guard back this year. Dublin were struggling to find a midfield partner for Fenton etc. Cluxton was at home sweeping the floor...

Mannion off form, McCaffery question marks on his fitness, always a hamstring injury waiting to happen, The cupboard was bare.

You know exactly what my point is and are just playing thick when is suits

McManus coming on as sub for Monaghan won your team many a game.Using your logic having 'Mansy' a 'player of a life time' on the bench was unfair! If Monaghan enticed a few Armagh lads (that are wasted on MGeeney) or yer man Sam Mulroy from Louth - Monaghan could be pushing for AI's.

But that is up to the Monaghan county board if Monaghan were serious that is what they should be doing. Monaghan were only two.three players away from having a great side with the subs to boot. The structure and style of play Monaghan have is spot on - well drilled.

Mick O'Dwyer brought in a raft of imports for Kildare back in the 90's and it brought success. I don't even think Monaghan need that many. If Monaghan did get Sam Mulroy for example it could transform them. I couldn't believe how good that fella was when I saw him play in the Leinster Final. Unfortunately due to the way the all-stars are created Mulroy will never get real recognition - the free feed and the trip abroad.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120924870#Comment_120924870

You are refusing to take the point that regardless if they were brought back in or not, the amount of players they have to choose from is an advantage. It's not rocket science - the bigger the pool the more likelihood of finding once in a lifetime players is. It was always my view that the recent drop in form was due to management changeover and that normal service will be resumed. I was right in that view.

It is neither an accident that being able to train all those players and condition them to a standard that is higher because of the money you can invest is also going to be an advantage over those who don't have the resources.

Now to discuss the game in question - the All Ireland final. It is my opinion the above was the difference on the day as it has been on other days. Simple as that. If you don't agree, fair enough,