The eviction ban

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333894#Comment_120333894

The State shouldn't underwrite their investment. Realistically if a landlord can't break even at the moment they should never have got involved in property. The idea that the State would take the risk out of it is yet another well-intentioned but utterly impractical idea that would destroy the market in time.

The State needs to confine itself to building houses, not trying to help or hinder landlords. The vast majority of them would just like to be left alone. They'll pay their tax, they knew they had to from the outset. But they can do without all these other interventions such as rent control and now limiting who they can sell to.

I'm largely out of property myself for the last few years, and despite the high rents I'm very glad to be so. The State just can't seem to leave the market alone, and even though it has a disastrous record over the last five years, the politicians are still going around with their size 12s, wrecking it further.

squidgainz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333806#Comment_120333806

I'm an accountant. I am fully aware they don't get a tax reduction on their capital amount , that would be obscene. Hahah deficit , but certainly not a loss. That's the key thing here. You've literally just made up a rental figure and made up an mortgage figure. NOWHERE in Dublin would a mortgage payment be anywhere near a rental payment. I completely agree on eviction ban being lifted, but not with lowering landlords tax. It is income tax rates. Same for all.

squidgainz

Just to repeat , there is not one rental property in Dublin available that doesn't go way beyond a landlords mortgage amount. Not one. It's 2k a month for a box of shite. That mortgage is probably around 800. So your points make zero sense. With Dublin anyway.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334087#Comment_120334087

I said I was using example figures to illustrate the cashflow issues for landlords. It may not be realistic for Dublin but it is realistic for the rest of Ireland.

Really as an accountant you do not see the issues with a deficit? Would you be a happy as a landlord having to fund a deficit every year?

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334108#Comment_120334108

OMG so you know what every landlords mortgage payment in Dublin is now.

You are coming across very foolish in what you post. You sound like a very disgruntled renter!

Im not engaging with you anymore - you dont seem to understand the situation. You have to look at it from both sides.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333806#Comment_120333806

Assuming the same re tax credits if you earned that 18k in your PAYE job you would be paying more tax than outlined in your example. This is why I would be opposed to tax breaks or different rates, whatever may be introduced.

Now tax treatment is a different thing and I'd like to see the negative cashflow in your example treated the same way as AVCs. Essentially the landlord in your example is contributing to their future financial wellbeing, not unlike an AVC. The landlord would get further tax relief of roughly 3.1k using the figures in your example. Any such relief could be tied to the property only being sold once pension age is reached.

Sunny Disposition

I was a landlord for decades and still am, in a small way. But I could never see any justification for the State not taxing my income on it. It would be grossly unfair and particularly repugnant at the moment. I think SF are pushing this agenda that people are leaving because of the tax regime, but that's not the case, which is fairly obvious with rents at such high levels.

What would help landlords, as I've said above, is if the State started to get out of the way. The introducing of rent pressure zones was a good example of a nonsensical proposal that spooked landlords and made things far worse for tenants. The eviction ban was another such move. The amount of protection for people who just stop paying rent is another.

If the State stayed out of the way over the last ten years both tenants and landlords would be a lot better off.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334159#Comment_120334159

Yep the treating of mortgage payment as a pension payment and offering tax relief on it is very good idea that would ease tax liability for landlord.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334159#Comment_120334159

By AVC do you mean a pension? The landlord can (more difficult nowadays) put the property into a pension structure and benefit from that. Of course there are the downsides that it is taxed on the way out. So pension contributions are just taxed later. I think it would be insane to have the capital portion tax deductable. I think it makes sense to have the interest deductable.

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333848#Comment_120333848

Only if they keep it, and they’re not they’re selling them, either way it’s the wrong way to look at it, as a renter you’re paying for a service, what bills the landlord has or what they have to pay is none of your business frankly, just as when you pay for a hotel room how the hotel uses that money to pay staff cover loans etc is none of your business, the same with renting a car etc.

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333773#Comment_120333773

Can’t disagree here I’ve argued for it to be treated the same as any other business for tax purposes, with the associated write downs etc. The problem there is a significant amount wouldn’t pay any tax because they don’t make any profit

lawrencesummers

I cant understand the fascination with linking the eviction ban to homelessness? The are two separate issues and treating them the same distracts from what is actually the problem.

If someone gets evicted from a rental property one of two things happens, another tenant moves in who was previously homeless or the house gets sold and someone who didnt have a house previously moves in, so the homeles figure goes up one and comes down one, ie nothing changes.

Yes individuals have a terrible time because podge and his family are getting evicted from their rental house, but rodge is delighted because he buys that house and moves in with his family to have a secure home.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334292#Comment_120334292

You're not accounting for the fact that a rental property tends to have more people living in it.

So a 3 bedroom house might be rented with three tenants. Maybe even 4-5 if you've couples sharing rooms.

Tenants are evicted, house is sold to a first time buyer couple.

Occupancy of the house has now reduced from anywhere from 3-5 people down to 2.

squidgainz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334132#Comment_120334132

Your example was stupid. Not helpful at all. I own my own house. I actually agree with a lot of landlords here about eviction times etc . But do not claim the poor mouth re tax. Not having that because its utter horseshite.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334260#Comment_120334260

Similiar to a pension but I haven't thought it through, whether or not it should be in a pension structure.

Look at this way using the example in the thread. Throw 7728 a year into an investment property and have to deal with the management of the property, repairs etc or throw a 7728 lump sum into an AVC each year and get a refund of 3091 from revenue.

I wouldn't ordinarily agree having the capital portion tax deductible hence why I've only suggested that the negative cashflow amount from the example be used in my suggestion.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334292#Comment_120334292

Exactly the point. An eviction ban does nothing for homelessness generally, it only changes the identity of the homeless.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334277#Comment_120334277

I've asked this before but have never seen an answer. What is stopping you registering as a business and getting the same tax treatment as the limited company running the local shop? Are there any legal obstacles to this?

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334437#Comment_120334437

I think you must be public sector the way you are referring to it. You aren't getting a refund from revenue, you are deferring taxation until you draw it down. That is why it would need to be in a pension type structure for it to be any way comparable. You don't have access to pension funds (expect in very restricted ways) until you start drawing the pension down. The landlord is otherwise just accumulating an asset they have current access to.

bluedex

The LL bashers still at it?

The facts:

• There has been increased government intervention in the rental market over the last 5-10 years, like rent controls and now the "eviction ban".
• There has been a mass exodus from the rental market by private property owners
• Less private LLs = less supply of rental properties = higher rents & more people without a home.

HeidiHeidi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334108#Comment_120334108

I own a single rental apartment in Dublin city, and have had to subsidize the tax due with my after-tax income every year. When the RPZ controls came in, I had a tenant in the apartment who was still on the same rent as when I first let it 5 or so years previously, I hadn't increased it because they were great tenants.

As a result the rent has been caught way below market rent ever since, with no prospect in sight of ever getting close to it. And with mortgage interest increasing faster than I can increase the rent, that situation is only getting worse lately.

The latest tenants left a couple of months back, and I'm now one of those landlords getting the f* out, selling even thought the sale price has also been compromised by the RPZ limits. I'm just not willing to gamble on what measures might be taken in the future to further limit my control over the property and lettings.

So there's your theory blown out of the water.

Viscount Aggro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334603#Comment_120334603

Let me guess, you borrowed money to invest.

squidgainz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334603#Comment_120334603

Sorry are you claiming the rent you received is less than your mortgage payment? Omg you had to supplement your income to pay tax?? eh just out of interest are you gaining equity in the property?

squidgainz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334565#Comment_120334565

I'm a LL basher with the ones who don't want to pay income tax. That's beyond pathetic.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334361#Comment_120334361

And your not accounting for a rental where 1 person is in it and then a family of 42 people moves in.

(the figure of 42 is used to draw attention to the fact that this is a hypothetical argument and the point still stands)

LongfordMB

Three things need to happen. 1) Tax on landlord income should be treated as corporation tax on a small business, not income tax on a salary. 2) landlord should be able to put rent up to market rate when advertising for new tenants. 3) remove all restrictions introduced in last three years on what landlords do with their own asset.

Do this and a flood of new apartments will hit the market driving rent down substantially.

squidgainz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334677#Comment_120334677

Hahahah no it will not. Any figures at all?

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334667#Comment_120334667

So is the average owner occupier house in Ireland housing 42 people and the average rental housing 1 person?

If not, then I don't see what point you are trying to make.

HeidiHeidi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334656#Comment_120334656

Literally nobody is arguing that landlords shouldn't pay income tax.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334656#Comment_120334656

That's not really being a 'landlord basher', that's not being okay with folks not wanting to pay income tax. Which I'm fairly sure will encompass everyone from landlords to renters to owner occupiers and everyone in between.

squidgainz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334722#Comment_120334722

That's not true.