Cork City - anti social behaviour etc... what's being done?

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281650#Comment_120281650

as an outsider i didn't really see anything wrong with the place myself, at least with anti-social behaviour, but then i only spent 4 days there in total

Heckler

I've lived in Cork all my life (50 odd years) and it has gone downhill a lot. I rarely go in to the city centre these days. Not afraid of assault or anything thats pretty rare especially if you have your wits about you but just the general state and vibe of the whole place.

Walking in to town through barrack street and down south main st. on a saturday night and I'd even hold off having a smoke. Moths to a flame from people drinking all afternoon on the scrounge. Daunt square is a shitehole. People openly pissing in the doorway of St.Augustines church on the mall. North main street was always a bit dodge and is decrepit.

By the time I'm out in the center later at night I'd be after a skinful and a lot of things go unnoticed but anytime I was in town after 12 sober it really opens your eyes.

In all my years out in the city I was assaulted three time. Two a very minor event (passing punch), one a 5 on 2 pummeling. All well over 20 years ago. And I've been in some states wandering around while in my my youth looking very alternative which is a red flag to some ne'er do wells.

In my opinion Cork is a safe city to visit and socialise in but if I would advise potential visitors of certain areas to avoid.

ofcork

Ive never had hassle going out in the city over 30 years but the last few years the city has definitely gone down even during the day,so quiet on a saturday now compared to before.The heroin problem is creating a lot of the issues as well as closed up shops etc,hopefully it will get better a shopping center is not the same at all.

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120274635#Comment_120274635

How rude and unnecessary. You are telling me I have mental health problems and am old because I can see with clear blue eyes? Was the personal attack actually necessary?

No, you cheeky pup, it's not that I'm old, or have depression (wtaf), it's that I am rarely in Cork. It's like seeing children you didn't see in a year and noticing how tall they got. I can clearly see the degradation as an outsider. Every time I come back to Cork I can see more rubbish on the streets, junk like robot trees, parklets and more boarded up places than before. Plenty of other cities also suffer from this, but there's no reason Cork can't do better.

And sorry, but it is gaslighting bullshlt to say that anyone who doesn't align with your rose-tinted filth-blindness view has some kind of nostalgia, sentimentality, mental health issue, emotional problem, or faulty memory. I own and maintain a few buildings around the city. I track, record and photograph when something nearby is derelict or in need of cleaning / repair. It is just plain old data.

the beer revolu

Gosh, such anger!

Chill the fcuk out and try to enjoy life a little.

I made no reference to your age whatsoever.

My post neither quoted you, nor directly referenced you. I preferred when you had me on ignore. And, less of the personal insults, please.

Mav11

I was in Rome for the weekend for the match and must have walked the city over the 3 days.

A few observations:

Homelessness also seemed to be an issue with rough sleeping, though not to the same extent as Cork or Dublin and not on the main thoroughfares.

Teenage gangs also causing trouble by the Colosseum although being watched by the police and wearing more stylish tracksuits (Italians😁)

Plenty of police around the city keeping an eye on things so tourists never felt intimidated.

I saw no sign of drug dealing anywhere. Maybe that was due to the police presence!

Ozvaldo

Cork City is full of junkies, homeless, beggers and wackers in tracksuits -no police presence whatsoever

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120260990#Comment_120260990

its not really the job of the council to provide solutions if someone wants to convert retail/commercial into residential. if the owner wanted solutions then they should hire an architect/planning consultant etc, its not really up to the council to fix their problem (now, having dealt with them in these sorts of situations in the past, theyre not always the easiest to get clarification/information all the same).

those sorts of fire escapes wouldnt get planning as they are unsafe and just a bad idea overall. i dont know the building too well either, but id imagine means of escape wasnt the only problem relating to fire anyway.

and i doubt it was that the fire officer just wouldnt allow it, the more likely case is that in its current condition it wouldnt be allowed and so works/certification to bring it to fire spec would be needed. but sure that costs money......

Robert Nairac

Is the burper still around or has he cleared off?

Mav11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120306478#Comment_120306478

its not really the job of the council to provide solutions if someone wants to convert retail/commercial into residential.

In fairness, if you read my original post it is not suggesting that at all. What the post does suggest is that if there were more people living in the city centre the safer and less intimidating the centre becomes. What the post further suggests, using the barber shop as an example, is that the council through their risk adverse / CYA approach is preventing this transformation.

Now, it is the council's job, to provide or allow for a safe and welcoming city centre free from anti social behaviour, where people can live and visit .

whisky_galore

The problem with Ireland is that it never seems to be anyone's job to do anything.

Mav11

Its easier!

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120308399#Comment_120308399

or as i explained in my post, certain people expect things to be done for free when it is meant to be a task that has to be paid for

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120308075#Comment_120308075

i agree that city centres (not just cork) need to become more residential - the high street as it was for the last however long is basically dead and cities need to adapt to meet that. however, haphazard development/redevelopment to meet this is not the answer - commercial and residential buildings are generally not constructed in the same way and they need works to convert from one use to another.

my point on this in relation to the barber was that he was blaming the council for something that is his problem (having not heard the conversation itself im going on how it was described here). as i said already, it is not the job of the various departments to provide solutions to this person who wants to convert his property to a different use - however, if he were to engage the services of a professional to design/engineer what needs to be done, i have found in the past the planning/fire departments etc, can be very amenable to work with proposals and help fix problems, once they are provided with some sort of formal proposal. they dont however, really deal with general enquiries which is how im guessing this person approached them

you say the council is risk adverse - if it is currently a commerical space (office or whatever), then most likely it does not have the proper fire protection between the upper and lower floors (possibly to other buildings too even). converting to residential would involve the provision of cooking facilities - should it just stay as it is and risk firespread?

so the council likely didnt just say no, they most likely said no as it currently is so come back with a formal proposal. which would cost the owner money, which i imagine is what they are actually upset with. technically the owner could do this themselves if they have the correct knowledge but engaging a professional is most likely needed. but it makes better radio for the misery merchants like prenderville to just complain about the council

Mav11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120310938#Comment_120310938

as i said already, it is not the job of the various departments to provide solutions

I wouldn't completely agree with this statement but regardless, it does not apply in this instance. In the example of the barber shop the solution was provided to the council, but the council rejected the proposal without indicating an alternative.

Its easy for the council just to say NO and thus cover their respective arses in the event that anything goes wrong.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120312114#Comment_120312114

no sorry it exactly applies in this situation. i actually went and searched the interview out to make sure i was understanding what the person was talking about. it sounds like there was a very informal enquiry made and they were told no

you say the council didnt indicate an alternative - once again, that simply isnt their job. it is up to the applicant (or their professional) to suggest solutions and the council can make comment on these - although there is a process for this and an informal enquiry will most likely not be entertained. now, are the waiting times too long for a formal discussion/meeting - absolutely, but thats a different story

and the style of fire escapes suggested dont really work so of course they wouldnt get planning permission, they generally arent allowed to be built anywhere in the world anymore

so as i said before, its very easy to just blame the council when in fact if this person followed the actual process they most likely would get somewhere. but that costs money, so its easier to just go on prenderville and complain

Mav11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120315379#Comment_120315379

You're a council employee, aren't you?

Because you fail to see that the problem is anti social behaviour and a possible solution is more people living in the city centre which the council are preventing. So the council are part of the problem when they should be part of the solution. But to repeat, it is easier to do nothing!

But I expect another typical council response to this.

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120306478#Comment_120306478

It actually is. It's their job, to facilitate and steer the future of the city, including making sure dereliction is addressed. It's just that the different departments (planning, fire, historical preservation) don't talk to eachother and all contradict eachothers rules. No connected guideline on how to develop above a shop. Private citizens here are expected to be able to navigate rules that make no sense, and they get bounced back and forth. There is no guideline, because it's almost impossible to develop spaces above retail. Knock it and rebuild with an architect isn't a rational suggestion. If you own only the floors above a shop, you cannot alter the ground floor.

I rent an apartment in a city in Europe, above a shop. There is no dedicated street entrance, I get to my apartment through a door in the shop itself. I have keys to the front of the shop and walk through to get to a corridor behind it, where there are stairs to my place. There is a fire escape out the back. This is perfectly normal across Europe. This isn't allowed in Cork for god only knows why. And you're not allowed to add access doors to the street itself, and you're not allowed to access them from the rear either. All ways to develop here above ground floor level are thoroughly blocked, unless you are building brand new.

The bits of Cork that are fantastic are the pubs, restaurants, cafes, shops, galleries, theaters with all the fantastic people running them, privately. Once you step off the street and into any building in Cork, it's like a different world. Private people pour money into development, and pay rates, income tax and VAT. Yet somehow the public spaces are built and then abandoned. I'm fully sure individuals in the council do their best, and their hands are tied too, but the processes seem to have evolved into utter nonsense, no-one seems to consider maintenance, or a few months in front of them.

The bollards that now separate bikes from cars as another example. I cycled this weekend in some of those. I get that it's to somehow protect cyclists. Except the street sweeping machines can't fit in them. So now the bikes lanes are scattered with shards of broken glass until someone hand-sweeps them. It would be laughable if it wasn't our own city.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120315592#Comment_120315592

no i dont work for the council (not that it would make any difference). i however, have provided solutions to very similar problems to what the person in question was talking about. the difference is that my clients were willing to follow the processes and decided it was worth the money to engage my professional services.

i have agreed from the start that it is imperative that more people live in the city centre. i do not however, want more people living there in spaces that do not meet fire safety standards.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120317994#Comment_120317994

you do have a point to be fair about departments not dealing with each other properly, i have had many frustrations with that in the past. nobody is saying things 100% have to be knocked (in most cases, the exact opposite is what is preferred), most solutions generally involve minimal demolition works

how long ago was your building built though? i dont know where you are talking about but i somehow doubt that would be allowed in a new build/refurb anywhere to be honest. also, i dont see why you would want more solutions like that, thats terribly cumbersome and not something that i would advocate

bike lanes are a different story but yes they need alot of work on numerous fronts (or did when i last used them anyway). fining people who stop/park in them would be a start

Mav11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319296#Comment_120319296

i do not however, want more people living there in spaces that do not meet fire safety standards.

Then perhaps the fire safety standards need to be looked at. Are they fit for purpose? Are they they result of an overly risk averse, CYA culture? Are they preventing progress in this matter?

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319381#Comment_120319381

im actually kinda speechless on this, regression on a safety front is not a good idea whatsoever.

Mav11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319415#Comment_120319415

So you would think that asking questions is not a good idea? Asking questions leaves you speechless? There is a term for this, it is called creating FUD. A typical ploy used by local authorities as an excuse for doing nothing!

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319443#Comment_120319443

no but asking stupid questions does

fire regs are actually relatively easy to meet. the problem is that it costs money usually to meet them so its easier to blame the council/fire safety officer/whatever. any talk of relaxing regulations to make conversion of use easier is absolutely absurd - there really isnt that much involved already and any lessening would lead to unsafe conditions

you seem to have a problem with the city and/or county council, which you are entitled to, they are in no way perfect of course. but take it from someone who has achieved pretty much exactly what this person was complaining about for a number of clients, the council really arent the problem in this case

Mav11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319844#Comment_120319844

no but asking stupid questions does

No need to get personal about it.

You and I are clearly diametrically opposed in our views on this matter.

To my mind there are two types of people in topics such as this i.e. finding a solution to anti social behaviour. There are those who for every problem strive to find a solution and there are those who for every solution strive to find a problem.

I know which camp I fall into!

Discussion ended. Good luck.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319964#Comment_120319964

sorry but what are you actually talking about at this stage?

even taking that converting commercial spaces would be the 'solution' to anti-social behaviour (it isnt 'the' solution but one of many things that would help), i have repeatedly stated that i agree that its a good idea and i have literally provided the designs for a number of clients to allow this. what i am saying however, is that it is not the remit of the council to spoon feed private owners/renters etc, the answers on how to achieve this, mainly seeing as it is not a one-size fits all approach.

there are no 'camps' to fall into in this case, it is simply that you dont understand how these things work or that you do understand and yet simply wish to continuing complaining because you want something to complain about

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319296#Comment_120319296

My building in Europe... it's OLD, 1700's.

Are you asking why would I want to be able to live above shops in a city? .... I kinda thought it was obvious...

To allow people to live in the city rather than concreting over our countryside.

To have more homes available to reduce homelessness and reduce the stress of hours of commuting.

To allow people live near where they work and study, less transport and traffic needed

To allow people live near shops and restaurants to support our local businesses

To have less dereliction -> less anti-social behaviour associated with it.

To allow private residents and owners maintain the space / make it more visually appealing.

Let me ask it back, why would you want to let useable city space rot?

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120322186#Comment_120322186

yes so thats why your situation is permitted most likely, id imagine if it were to be refurbished now though an alternative entrance would need to be provided. same thing here, if something has been in place for a long time its left as is (unless outright dangerous) and then when upgrades/refurbishments/change of uses are happening then they need to be brought up to current standards (generally anyway)

no i wasnt questioning living above a shop etc, i was questioning why you would think the entrance situation you have would be a good solution since entering through a business is very cumbersome. its fine where it is already in place but for any building that is being upgraded etc its not really a good idea

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120322219#Comment_120322219

No, the building is from the 1700's, the apartment is new-ish, last 5 years. They didn't want to damage the facade by adding another entrance, so this was the available solution. You see they actually want people to live in the city, so the local council approves it. It's like they are allowed use their brain.

It's a good solution because it allows the building to be used for housing instead of rotting.

The current "standards" in Cork effectively mean letting the place rot to the ground rather than being flexible with the access rule so someone can live in and develop the spaces above the shop. No common sense, it's like some moron at a desk spouting "Computer says no". Having to knock entire buildings to allow a new entrance be designed to access a small apartment costs millions. It is so expensive and difficult in a city built on a marsh (you have to prop up all the other buildings) that it's not feasible.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324481#Comment_120324481

thats interesting that it is a recent development that allowed this situation, i would have thought most places would not be okay with it but it seems not. i would have presumed this because either way it really is a poor solution, accessing your private property through another 'private' (so to speak) property is just bad design. for example, if i were the business owner i would not be happy about people accessing my property outside of hours.

as to your last paragraph, no access as very little to do with using upper level floors in the city, fire separation is the main issues from a construction pov. you could argue that the council has a large part of the blame for the dereliction around the city, absolutely, but enforcing fire and building regulations really isnt part of the problem. knocking an entire building to allow access is just pure hyperbole to be honest, in the majority of cases if thats the only solution proposed then you need a better designer

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325998#Comment_120325998

No need to diss it, it's not "really poor", it's a compromise where there are space and aesthetic constraints. Creating a Living city is a priority, so flexibility and innovation is encouraged.

But maybe instead of more "designers" like you suggest there could be a guideline / whitepaper of acceptable solutions from the council. Why does every single individual development need to spend this time over and over again here? Most of Cork is very similar. Provide a template of solutions that work, stop wasting people's time and money.

Designers, architects, QS's cost money. Believe me I've burnt enough of it without being able to find feasible solutions in Cork and simply took my development capital and moved it on to other countries. Do you guys not want housing or what?

sporina

on this subject - was in a store in the city yday eve - stumbled upon a guy spraying deodorant all around him (and I assume inhaling).. then he ran off.. next thing I heard people "running".. turned out the same guy was caught steeling a tent (staff member saw him and ran after him)..

felt sorry for him - and the staff..

NB: I know that stuff like this has always been happening in cities.. so its not new - unlike some of the other stuff mentioned in my OP going on in Cork city centre these days