Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings and threadbans - updated 11/5/24*

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143571#Comment_122143571

How do we compete with foreign countries, especially the oil-rich ones, willing to pay Irish trained doctors and nurses more than we can afford?

It's a complex issue but one I think easily solved with some hard borders controls to prevent young Irish people leaving.

'Keep them here! Keep them here!'

SuperBowserWorld

I think Ireland hasn't had to deal with any real issues as a nation before. Normally we hope the problem goes away or someone else tackles it.

We have been ridiculously lucky benefiting from science and technology advances and investments from MNCs in these areas. That + English speaking + EU membership = Goldilocks economy.

This government will try and spend its way out of a difficult problem. This will blow up the national debt and destabilize the country. They are desperately trying to avoid another housing bust by increasing demand and reducing supply. It's like an unfunny cartoon.

They don't have any other cards to play. That's all they understand. We got a slap in the face in 2008 and our permanent government did not learn from that.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143855#Comment_122143855

Maybe some of those coming to Ireland were part of the 3593 who disappeared from Danish detention centres between 2016 and 2019.

Are they living undocumented in Denmark or scattered around Europe?

Or maybe it was people deterred by Danish policies who came to Ireland instead?

Doesn't bode well for the Danish approach as a viable EU solution.

https://unbiasthenews.org/living-in-fear-in-copenhagen-how-denmark-is-deliberately-infringing-on-the-rights-of-people-seeking-asylum/

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122141422#Comment_122141422

Yes. You do all those things, and that's great. But you have been enabled to do many of those things by virtue of the fortunate circumstances you were born into. You were born into good healthcare, a stable society that allowed you to grow up peacefully and to access a high level of good education and training.

You own land and keep it well — but your land is in a temperate climate, you are largely not at risk of it being ruined by natural disaster or destroyed by war or of it being taken from you without legal recourse. Your right to private quiet possession of your land is protected by a strong rule of law.

You pay taxes — because you live in a country with a functioning administration of taxation which is again supplemented by strong rule of law. Should misfortune befall you, there are many safety nets to at least break that fall.

You served your country's defence forces and this is to be respected, but you chose to do so — you were never put in a position of having to take up a gun to defend your home, or indeed simply having to flee your home because an invading army or group of maniacs came with guns.

This is not to say you should feel bad about this, or guilty. My objection is to those who demean migrants without acknowledging that much of the distinction between "us and them" in terms of our wonderful educated trained Western refinement is based on pure luck. And despite the fact that many of them have navigated an obstacle course in life far harder than the one we had to, and grafted hard, there is still a narrative pushed that poorer migrants are just lazy spongers.

It is easily possible to be pro-controlled migration without that mentality — but some would appear to believe they are mutually exclusive.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144391#Comment_122144391

I don't work for the Government or an NGO...

But George Soros pays me per post...

Cha-ching keep it coming 💸🤑🪙🫰💰💲

zell12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144543#Comment_122144543

Got the name wrong, it was the Grand Canal, heard 75 on newstalk bulletin, it has increased again

Rezident

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144072#Comment_122144072

Best thing I have read online in a long time. Can we vote for you since none of the top three parties can be trusted here anymore?

Agree with everything you have said, I'm sure many do, but where are they politically?

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144794#Comment_122144794

Let's not forget that our current state as a country was not always so.

100 years ago we had an armed uprising and civil war to establish our freedom.

Our population was poor, uneducated and with little opportunities. Less than 100 years before that many were starving and dying.

Those who made the decision to leave weren't welcomed with welfare and housing and money. They weren't welcomed at all in cases. They had to work to survive and if they didn't they didn't.

We fought through a lot of hard times ourselves and sacrificed and lost a lot of people in the process to get to where we are today. The benefits you speak of were earned not gifted. The opportunities we now have were the result of flawed men like Haughey laying the foundations of the IFSC and multinational investment. The peace we've earned came after decades of fighting and loss and thanks to the efforts of people on both sides to fight instead for a better future - but again, no one handed it to us.

Many (no not all) of the people who you are advocating for want the benefit of our efforts but without any of the sacrifices and efforts we made to get them. It might be understandable but it's not their right or entitlement.

What they probably should be doing is what we did: demand the changes and reforms and improvements at home. It won't happen overnight and it won't be without pain and sacrifice but it's the only long term solution. It's just not possible to relocate the population of those less fortunate to places like Ireland and Europe, especially when they expect to be supported, trained, and funded from day one and potentially indefinitely.

It's not our job to take on the responsibility for solving the problems, desires or ambitions of anyone who happens to arrive on our shores. We have our own people and problems to deal with and they must always come first. That's the promise and commitment between the State and it's people - it's the basis of the social contract.

Charity begins at home as I've said. We've done more than our part. We only have so much to give and so much we can do and we've gone beyond that to the point of compromising our ability to look after our own problems and needs.

It can't continue. It also ultimately will do nothing to address the reasons why people are leaving their own country. Quite the opposite - it'll make it worse for both the source and the hosts.

Geert von Instetten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144770#Comment_122144770

If practised EU-wide by Member States, or preferably, if policies of deterrence based on the Danish model were legislated for and implemented at an EU level, I expect the Danish approach would be completely functional. As it is, the Irish electorate is concerned with the abuse of the asylum system in Ireland and the adoption of the Danish model in Ireland will address that.

mykrodot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144427#Comment_122144427

and it that means just voting for an Independent and nobody else then do it. Do NOT give 2nd, 3rd, 4th preference votes!! These votes will still get mainstream politicians in on transfers!

Patrick2010

The Dutch looking to limit asylum seekers…

https://migrant-integration.ec.europa.eu/news/netherlands-coalition-parties-introduce-stricter-migration-and-integration-measures_en

Lets see how Brussels reacts

After months of negotiation, 4 political parties in the Netherlands have reached a coalition agreement.
They presented 10 key points which include strict asylum reforms and
integration requirements, and instigated a temporary 'Asylum Crisis Law'
allowing for far-reaching actions on migration.

The key points from the coalition agreement are as follows:

• The indefinite asylum permit will be abolished, and requirements for the temporary residence permit will be tightened.
• Asylum seekers previously permitted to stay will have this status
  reviewed, with focus on deportation as often as possible and including
  through forced measures.
• Those with refugee status will no longer receive priority in allocation of social rental housing.
• Automatic family reunification will no longer be possible.
• The 'asylum seeker dispersal law' will be repealed. The law aimed
  to distribute asylum seekers and refugees more evenly across the
  country, preventing certain municipalities or regions from
  disproportionately accommodating asylum seekers.

Additional obligations on integration include:

• extension of the standard naturalisation period to 10 years, regardless of the type of residence permit;
• foreigners seeking Dutch nationality must, if possible, renounce their original nationality;
• the language requirement for naturalisation is raised to level B1;
• 'integration' includes knowledge about the Holocaust and its victims.

Read more about the measures outlined in the coalition agreement.

Additionally, the coalition will request permission from the European
Commission to opt out of the European Asylum and Migration policy. They
also advocate for stricter border control and the implementation of a
‘two-tier status system’ which will entail granting migrants different
legal statuses based on their purpose or right of residence, such as
permanent residency versus temporary or conditional residency.

The_Kew_Tour

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144918#Comment_122144918

If I could thank hundred times I would.

Nail on head.

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144999#Comment_122144999

This is exactly it. A vote for SF may as well be a vote for FF/FG/Greens/Soc Dems/Labour/PBP Rise etc. There is no difference between them on this issue. No transfers to any of these parties if you want to see any change in the current policies!

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144559#Comment_122144559

Lets see how this one plays out because Harris has committed to not allowing the camps to repopulate. But of course, they will; in the absence of any accommodation.

If it goes unchecked it obviously want take long to reach 1000 tents. The govt are really in a mess with this now.

baldbear

IMG_20240516_075749.jpg

A few lads earlier today. Crouching tiger hidden tents.

facehugger99

Other than business owners looking to increase the cheap labour pool or property moguls looking to jack up real estate prices, I don't see who would be in favour of……

Oh, wait, I just got it

Panthro

Speaking of zero Refugee policy, The Dutch want to knock the issue on the head

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13425425/Netherlands-EU-rules-strictest-asylum-policy.html

Headshot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122145075#Comment_122145075

This will be fascinating to see how this will be handled in Europe and could be a litmus test for all countries.

There's some really common sense points in that list but what interests me is how will they deport the illegal asylum seekers.

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144229#Comment_122144229

Look, I understand your feelings, but apathy is our enemy right now. You know how much the main parties are panicking behind the scenes? Look at FG suddenly trying to sound hard on immigration, yeah right. Yesterday at the FF parliamentary meeting TDs and Senators "ambushed" Micheal Martin and were told to expect between 30,00 - 50,000 asylum seekers this year alone! Expect those numbers to be on the lower side, I'd personally say you could double or triple that. SF are in freefall and are going to find out exactly how hard their landing will be in the local elections. All the main parties are purely reactive and on the run.

IMO now is exactly the time to vote against them to punish them for their policies that have brought us to this situation. So what if they aren't able to form a government at the next general election? A collapse in their vote will cause them to change their policies to catch as may votes as possible. FF &FG are "catch all" parties that always try and suit their policies to get the maximum number of votes. SF are trying to be that, but are finding it difficult to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.

So, if a government can't be formed after a few months a new election will be called and the main parties will come around with their tails between their legs if they want to be voted in. Don't forget politicians main aim is to get into power and hold onto it for as long as possible, so they will do whatever it takes. Do you not remember the amount of politicians voting to abolish the Seanad, and then when they lost seats at the next election they scurried into the Seanad? Aodhan O'Riordan is one particular example. They have been let away with things for generations and their arrogance has brought us to this situation. It's time to teach them some manners.

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144653#Comment_122144653

Kaiser, I have to say you're knocking it out of the park this morning. Fair play.

pc7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144803#Comment_122144803

I wasn’t talking about you

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122145147#Comment_122145147

It should be noted that Wilders is probably further to the right than even the Irish 'far right'. He openly describes himself as 'anti Muslim' and has given numerous speeches attacking Islam. He is naturally a strong supporter of Israel too and says he wants to move the Dutch embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

Marcos

Yes, and do you think it will get any better between now and a general election? This is already the number one issue on people's minds, now if Harris was to wait until next year for a general election there will be at least another 30,00 to 50,000 asylum applications in the country. They can't all be put in East Wall, Coolock, Roscrea, Crooksling, Naas, Westport, Ballina, Killarney, Newtownmountkennedy et al. FG may be happy to see SF vote haemorrhaging, but this issue is just too big. I think this one will hurt all the parties.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144918#Comment_122144918

The thing is though — I'm not arguing with you. And your post, well-written and sincere as it is, is a perfect demonstration that there is an almost automatic knee-jerk reaction to take a post which attempts to contextualise poorer migrants in a less demeaning and more understanding light and interpret them as meaning we need to look after them or that migration controls should be lessened.

That's not my argument here — my argument is simply that it's not a necessary component of a pro-controlled migration outlook to vilify or denigrate migrants, or to see ourselves as better than them due to some superiority we have earned and they have not. It's tempting yes, if you want less migrants then portraying them as hopelessly lazy or "the great unwashed" is a handy image to create. But it detracts from, and turns a lot of people away from, the perfectly reasonable and compelling socioeconomic arguments against heavy migration and multiculturalism.

Yes — Ireland has very much fought through hard times. But there are circumstances that have favoured Ireland too, unlike other former imperial colonies. Our people fled to places like America, and had embedded themselves and intermarried into American society just in time for that country's rise to unparalleled global dominance — helping us to establish strong links and investment and an ongoing base for Irish emigration. We have maintained for the most part very friendly and cordial relations with the old imperial overlord, with extensive social and economic links, and again trade and investment. We were in Europe, which gave us the chance to join the new free trade bloc across the continent, helping us to further step out of the UK's shadow and to develop deep trading links with Europe. We have also not found ourselves in the path of any huge disaster, genocide, invasion etc.

That's not to take away from Ireland's achievements since independence, which are hugely impressive (a fact which seems to be lost on many on here who seem to do nothing but tell us how sh*t Ireland is and how much of a joke the country has become) — but some circumstances have very much been in our favour in ways that they have not for other countries.

dmakc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122145203#Comment_122145203

Why should it be noted? You're coming across as petty now. It's a coalition. Anything you can find to go against what many will agree is a political step in the right direction.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144106#Comment_122144106

That is another way of looking at it .

But as I said a few times now before the health service needs these people .

It cannot function without adequate numbers of staff and there is no realistic option to say we will run a reduced service until we have enough numbers of Irish nurses and doctors trained and willing , to stay in the service , as I think you can understand .

Although you would be forgiven for thinking that successive ministers of health have tried cutting back services because of lack of staff . They have simply cut back staff and frozen recruitment every time there is an outcry about how much public services cost .

With the result that people burn out and/ or leave resulting in more problems for the already beleaguered health service . Services suffer as a result , people are not properly cared for and as we see some people die .

" Oh where have our health workers gone ? Only foreign nurses and doctors" .. ad nauseum , rinse and repeat.

If a stable secure workforce is desired , people should be paid properly consideration given to their accomodation and transport especially working shifts in busy city centre hospitals .

No service can survive the extreme fluctuations in staff numbers and services that see in this country EVERY FEW YEARS .

It however is not on topic for this thread as we are not discussing asylum seekers anymore.

So won't reply further to this .

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122145173#Comment_122145173

The locals & Euros are first. Who really cares if the political parties are decimated on local authorities. It won't be the end of the world. Likewise with MEPs, quite invisible to the average citizen. They pop up now & then with wacky agendas like putting all the EU on the same time zone, whilst others cosy up to the Kremlin. Give them the boot.

Lofidelity

There was a Portuguese tv crew doing a report from the canal campsite today.

All this attention is only advertising the country for more to arrive.

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122145313#Comment_122145313

I'm perfectly aware that the locals and Europeans are first, but the main parties will be looking very closely at the results of them with the general election in mind. The same arguments will still apply in the run up to the next general election.

Northernlily

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122145371#Comment_122145371

France 24 yesterday aswell.

I think the continental EU will be happy for us to become a dumping ground for surplus AS. Geographically it makes sense and there is green eye over our tax system.

That's before we get to non contributing to NATO defense which I think is wrong in the current climate.

A decision has been taken somewhere and we are truly fucked I fear.