Meter & Tariff Compatibility

td2008

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087123#Comment_120087123

They can but they can only see the 24HR or D/N/P reads on the meter not the interval data which was deemed personal data

unkel

@td2008 - "which was deemed personal data"

Buy whom?

Not having a go at you, just genuinely perplexed by this. The meter reader could stand there for 24 hours and record every single minute afaik.

td2008

The EU - in the electricity directive from a few years ago if I remember. You'll see all suppliers asking for this

I suppose he could stand outside and do that and maybe you could sue :)

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086968#Comment_120086968

Yes, and the way I inherited the electric setup in the house, I'm likely to hit the 80a before the 63a consumer. Whenever I'm hitting 15kW o'clock or higher, at least 7kW 32a of that is on a separate consumer unit and supply (except the same DSO fuse). I have a weeeeeird electrical setup which I inherited buying this house. there were offices, a commercial garage, and the main house. 3 boards, two meters when I moved in (one now). Crazy stuff, but it helps me actually be more safe with 15kW oclock as the loads are split.

So in short, I have a 12kva /63a connection. There's a 63a fuse in both larger consumer units (and 40a in a third). The sticker on my DSO fuse is 60/80a.

And what it comes down to, I couldnt change to a higher MIC, as they (networks) wanted to swap me to MCC12 to do so.

Manion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087123#Comment_120087123

While I'm unsure if consent is actually required as I read an article in the IT giving out about the lack of it and also a plan to move to taking meter readings every 5 minutes the issue is two fold, 1) the meter can also measure instantaneous power, both real and reactive. This in theory allows the supplier to derive significant insights into what's going on within your home 2) with a short enough sampling window the insights get more fine grained.

For instance the supply would be able to tell when you woke up, when you went to work, when you came home. With reactive power measures they can even determine signatures for certain appliances like a TV so they can tell when you watch TV, even if you have a TV (not great for the TV license dodgers out there)*. This isn't fanciful btw, I've a shelly on my mains and I can spot most of these and it's specifically what the likes of Electric Ireland advertises. You're billed every two months, there is no intrinsic business reason for suppliers to collect information more frequently than that.

Now if data is anonymized and aggregate the requirements are different again, so if ESBn wants fine grained usage data every half an hour that's fine but they have to anonymize and aggregate it in such a way that it is no longer PII data and linkable back to an individual or household. Long and short, collecting and processing of smart meter readings at a high frequency in a way that links the insights generated to you as an individual requires consent under GDPR. This is why Electric Ireland offer smart tariffs with and without smart insights.

10-10-20

I was perplexed by that statement from the ESB that a new smart D/N meter would need to be released.

The reason for the lack of support for dual tariff on the smart meters is laid out in that document linked earlier. Smart meter RM107 was only designed (read: specified) with a single register for accruement of units. The register is the one and only location for recording the unit values and can only be incremented (or decremented in the case of a return flow to the grid, if the feature is available) by the meter's firmware. This is to avoid tampering as the register is likely to be a sealed and tamper-evident chip. The register is read by the meter when a user presses the button on the front and if there is no second register then there is no option in firmware to read the non-existent register! I'd guess that being able to determine your utilisation at-meter is written into the legal documents and this is a move to ensure that the legal end remains upheld for the cohort who refuse to move away from a D/N meter (or block the 3G/4G/5G signal).

So, seems stupid not to have spec'd the function of two registers initially, but somebody specified it probably on the basis of it being unnecessary, but now it seems to have become a problem. Maybe some political pressure there, I don't know, but this is a very interesting change so late in the day.

There are tonnes of unanswered questions on this such as: are they planning to perpetually continue D/N contract support for any users already on D/N meters then? Otherwise why not move everybody to smart meters and just force the tariffs on us all?

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088853#Comment_120088853

I was perplexed by that statement from the ESB that a new smart D/N meter would need to be released. 

The reason for the lack of support for dual tariff on the smart meters is laid out in that document linked earlier. Smart meter RM107 was only designed (read: specified) with a single register for accruement of units.

I read it to mean that the same smart meter can be used for everyone just that it needs to be configured with different settings at install time for the d/n customers. Presumably ESBn can program them and reseal them prior to them being installed. i.e. I dont think it requires a new smart meter.

are they planning to perpetually continue D/N contract support for any users already on D/N meters then? Otherwise why not move everybody to smart meters and just force the tariffs on us all?

I'd imagine they will continue to support it, but they will probably price us out of it eventually.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088853#Comment_120088853

Yet again, networks cannot force you to change MCC code. Therefore they either need to provide a smart meter that matches the functionality of an MCC02 day night meter, or continue with the piecemeal approach we have now. This is what is spelled out in the CRU paper on the subject.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088905#Comment_120088905

A new meter doesnt need to be released, but a new specification does. The current smart meters are not configured in a way that meets the requirements of MCC02. The only way other than this would be to specify a 3 year window or something where day night rates are no longer offered without smart meters. But even that might be subject to wrangling as it's a networks enforced change of tariff and that is not allowed.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088997#Comment_120088997

Dunno - the way I read it, there will be a modification to the hardware.

MCC01 = Single-phase 24hr tariff (currently supported under the Smart Meter Exchange process)

MCC02 = Day/Night tariff

From the document:

• RM106 and RM107 will support MCC01, MCC12, MCC16 (Not MCC02)
• New RM number will support MCC02, MCC12, MCC16 (Not MCC01)

That implies to me that rather than having the meter configured OTA or onsite, instead a specific D/N hardware SKU has to be ordered by the energy supplier when a D/N meter is requested as the alternate smart meter will not suffice.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120089467#Comment_120089467

Interesting info. I think that just reinforces what I said earlier though, it's a software change. They will change the smart meters to display 2 rates (day and night) for MCC02 use, or one rate (24hr) for MCC01 use. Either will be able to use smart tariffs MCC12/16 but are not interchangeable between MCC01 and MCC02.

I didnt read that in the CRU document linked earlier. Did I skim over it or are you referring to a different doc?

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120089580#Comment_120089580

It's in this change-request from earlier:

https://rmdservice.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/MCR1225-MCCO2-Meter-Exchanges.pdf

All open to interpretation. We'd need a strategist with mandarin linguistics skills to know for sure. 😀

Jonathan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120089580#Comment_120089580

It's the document I told you to read two pages back. 😂

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120089740#Comment_120089740

I have read it, as it's the basis of everything else I said and has been for months if not more since it was released. Trust me, I've read it. I've exploited it for my benefit to switch to a D/N meter and keep deemed export payments despite ostensibly refusing a smart meter.

I obviously missed that part linked above though

EDIT: The change request document linked above by 10-10-20 is not the CRU decision paper I had been referring to. This change request is new, only submitted Q4 2022 and is the first sign of moving MCC02 customers in the same way MCC01 customers are being done already.

EDIT2: The different RM numbers could point to different hardware or different software. The existing Day Night meters can also be set as 24hr meters by changing the software, same hardware but different RM.

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088800#Comment_120088800

Sounds like they fed the sub boards from a point before the 63a fuse on the main board. Should be after it.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090957#Comment_120090957

Quick q, In the UK do they not have a fuse on the main board? Videos I've seen them come straight from the meter into the consumer unit main switch.

Here it seems that the esbn fuse is like a fail safe, the house one should always blow first(or trip)

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092330#Comment_120092330

Not sure, I think they have a rule that if the meter tails are more than 3 meters than fault protection is required in the form of a switched fuse or mcb. Otherwise most I've seen seem to have the meter tails going directly into the consumer unit through a double pole isolator.

Here now it's a double pole mcb at the meter cabinet and a double pole isolator at the board.

Jonathan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090957#Comment_120090957

Is this situation permitted if there is a main overcurrent device is fitted in the meter cabinet? Or must there always be a main board and any sub boards fed from that?

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090957#Comment_120090957

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092512#Comment_120092512

I'd hazard a guess that it's probably not strictly speaking permitted tbh. We had an organic growth from one house with a garage to 2 connections to 3 connections to 2 connections with 2 meters (this is where we bought it) to one connection aggregating the two prior connections in such a way that they are joined only at the main meter.

Mind you, I've had recis and ESBn out since buying, of course I didnt do any of the wiring myself.

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092512#Comment_120092512

The problem with that situation is that the main switch at the main panel could be switched off and if they didn't realise that there was a sub board they might end up getting a surprise.😬

volkswagengm4

Hey Folks,

I got a smart meter installed yesterday removing my mcc02 day/night. I didnt want it but the account was in my wifes name and she agreed. I have an 8kw solar array (3.6kw battery) on my roof and my meter was going backwards. Sweeeeeeet.

So as of now I havent selected a plan or been approached.

The ESB was really sound and chatted to him during the install. He rang my wife today and asked me to ring him. He was talking about meters and getting paid for the generation however he was badly informed but wanted to call me and let me know there were option with respect to type of meters and plans. Again he didnt really know the whole story and was just the man in the middle. So what I got from him is the following:

The current meter will measure my units exported and pay the .21c rate but it would have to be activated to mcc16 in order to do this so. Right now it is still currently a day/night I think. But when activated it will be an mcc16 and forced onto day/night/peak ???

He mentioned if I dont keep this meter/change it, the other meter would calculate the units produced as per invertor size and give you a set amount back for the year rather than what you actually exported as a surplus

So could someone tell me is what he said with respect to the type of meters and plans is correct.

I would believe I would do better if I got paid for the surplus I exported as I have produced 2250kw since July 24th. I dont mind going onto day/night/peak if I get a return on the surplus produced rather than a fixed amount as per invertor

Thanks for your time

Jim

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120100019#Comment_120100019

So did you have a dual day night analogue meter? It had a timeclock and 2 separate readings.

Were you moved off your current tariff? Onto a 24 hrs one? What is your current tariff before the meter change?

When you say ESB, is it esb networks? Or electric Ireland?

volkswagengm4

Hi @graememk

I had a time lock and day/night readings. No moving as of yet so I suppose electric Ireland will be in contact.

I was conversing with the ESB technician who installed the meter.

Cheers

Manion

You where definitely better off with the spinning backwards meter.

Since January 2022, a tax exemption applies to income up to €200 per year received by domestic micro-generators from their suppliers by way of the CEG. This means that for the vast majority of domestic renewables self-consumers, who will typically have an installation of below 6kW, there is no need to declare their income from the CEG.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/b1fbe-micro-generation/

The FIT is a head ache for you if you generate more than 200 euros worth. You'll get taxed at the marginal rate and have to do a Form 11. Going rate for a Form 11 tax return from an accountant these days is 500 euro.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120100389#Comment_120100389

surely that would be then tax deductible then? :P

Any actual guidance from revenue yet? No mention other than the tax exemption on that link though.

Manion

I'm not sure it would be tbh, you're allowed to claim Account feeds against certain types of earnings, not sure if it's generally deductible. But yeah assuming it is, you all this hassle basically to put money in the pocket of an accountant. Or you can do your own return and frankly I'd rather just not have the FIT than have to do that. I'd imagine the guidance will the the same as similar other types of income. You'll need to declare it and pay it.

Galego

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120077638#Comment_120077638

Is Energía raising the day/night (48/14) tariff in April?

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120100886#Comment_120100886

I was referring to the energy guarantee scheme or whatever it's called in the UK.

Martin lewis explains it much better

https://twitter.com/MartinSLewis/status/1613189073929383937

Remember this is in great Britain, who knows what's gonna happen in NI.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120100019#Comment_120100019

A day night meter that went backwards, on mcc02? And changed to smart meter without your request?

Somehow I smell a rat here. Something doesnt add up. I think they've already changed your MCC as you cannot have a RM106 smart meter on an MCC02 configuration.

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120102090#Comment_120102090

I didnt want it but the account was in my wifes name and she agreed.

I think that's the key statement there.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104082#Comment_120104082

Yes agreed. It means that they agreed to move from a day night tariff to a smart meter tariff. I assume, unless they have been moved to MCC01 - standard 24hr, but thats unlikely.

Key is that it was agreed, they cannot currently move you from a day night meter to a smart meter. As we saw earlier, the RM107 smart meters will change that