Meter & Tariff Compatibility

DrPhilG

This isn't a controversial statement is it?

I didn't think so but I've been fighting off arguments ever since I posted this on Facebook.

People seem to refuse to recognise the difference in a day/night tariff, and a smart tariff that includes day/night rates (among others).

Jonathan

No, not controversial, BUT the super secret day/night smart tariffs muddy the waters. These are smart tariffs which are functionally equivalent to a day/night tariff and are designed to get day/night users to migrate over to smart meters. @ECO_Mental was offered one recently.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269685/#Comment_119269685

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120072581#Comment_120072581

That doesnt happen though - it was an opinion expressed on that post. I'll believe that when I see it. Suppliers seem to have either all decided , or more likely, all been instructed, not to offer D/N tariffs on smart meters. Phil's table above is correct.

You can get smart tariffs with day/night/peak or day/night/ev boost or equivalent... but you cannot get the day night tariffs on a smart meter. Day night tariffs are 2300-0800. No 2 hours of "boost" etc. Night rates offer 13c/kwh for 9 hours. See current Energias tariff for new customers.

EDIT: If you read the doc linked to in the post above, you will see they are not suggesting offering day/night tariff on a smart meter. They are suggesting changing customers from day/night tariffs to smart tariffs.

". ESBN propose to exchange a day/night MCC02 meter with a smart meter, set at MCC16 (Day, Night and Peak) on commissioning."

ELM327

Also this line indicates the end of day night tariffs and meters... not a mere meter exchange.

The expectation is that suppliers would proactively contact the customer and begin a re-contracting journey prior to the exchange taking place.

td2008

FYI

https://rmdservice.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/MCR1225-MCCO2-Meter-Exchanges.pdf

graememk

Yep

Smart meters do not support MCC02 (day/night) tariffs.

There may be equivalent time of use smart tariffs that have day/night/peak/night boost whatever but it's not the same tariff.

Day night meters still have a 100odd euro higher standing charge though.

The current situation re day/night and smart meter switchover still requires prior contact and can't just be swapped like a 24hr meter

jkforde

Screenshot_20230106-102108~01.jpg

this would indeed be good news

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120072779#Comment_120072779

Q3 2023.. so.. 2025? 😂

jkforde

thank god I copped on in time and swapped 24h to DN meter... they can take their time

unkel

I refuse to believe that a smart meter can not do day / night. It simply doesn't make sense. It collects grid import and grid export data per 30 minute period, doesn't it? This data is then automatically sent to the utility provider, isn't it?

So by definition the utility company can then bill the end user exactly like a day / night meter by adding up the grid import data from the 30 half hour periods from 8AM to 23PM as day rate and the 18 half hour periods from 23PM to 8AM as night rate.

They can, but obviously somehow they don't or won't or were told not to or something else. As @ELM327 suggested.

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120073518#Comment_120073518

100% - no technical reason whatsoever.

I've been saying it for months. D/N people are the last to migrate to Smart meters as one of the primary functions of smart meters is to help curb peak usage specifically at dinner time. People with D/N have already "done this work" by moving their loads from day time to night time. If you don't move 20%-30% of your load to night time, D/N actually costs you more than Daytime due to the higher standing charges.

Makes sense then that they would leave this demographic until last to migrate if you have a multi-year project you want to move the people who will have the most effect first.

slave1

The root cause here is not the Smart Meter, it the human incompetence in ESB Networks who have their monopoly and are belligerently holding on to it

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120073518#Comment_120073518

Exactly. But I suspect they (ESBn) wont or can't put this functionality in MCC02 for some users but not others. This is why "activating" a smart meter moves you from MCC01 to MCC16 (and 12 I think?). MCC01 is only for standard 24hr tariffs. This is how they got around it for MCC01 customers. They can install smart meters without changing your tariff from MCC01 - and it only changes when you "activate".

There is no technical reason why the smart meters cannot be set as day night meters as you say, match the half hour slots to day night meter times, and then you can install a smart meter and keep the MCC02 as is. I do suspect that something else may be afoot, possibly the removal of MCC02 altogether, and this is what's delaying it. Otherwise they would simply have done as above and configured the smart meters to match day night times and installed. The only blocker - which is in every CRU, ESBN etc paper on the topic - is that MCC02 defines your tariff with your supply company. Networks are a third party to that contract and cannot interfere unilaterally. Any changes have to either leave you on MCC02 or remove MCC02 entirely at a network level.

Jonathan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120073933#Comment_120073933

Did you not read the link posted by @td2008 above? It explains what the plan is; smart meters configured for MCC02.

irishchris

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120074548#Comment_120074548

Send like a proposed suggestion rather than definite but would be good to see it happening

td2008

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120073933#Comment_120073933

To get the interval data the supplier would need to get the customers consent - if that is given the meter can be configured to MCC12 to provide the interval reads. This would be more tricky as the roll out could not be Networks led as proposed in the DR I've linked above.

Once a customer is on MCC12 the day could be split however you want as you say - it does seem that all suppliers are encouraged to push a peak in their time of use tariffs though

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120074548#Comment_120074548

Yes I did read it, but currentlty that is not feasible. It's an oft quoted link.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120074685#Comment_120074685

This is still the most likely solution

irishchris

Definitely should be able to be done. For example I'm on smart plan with pinergy which has day rate and 3 hour ev rate only with no night or peak rate. That EV rate could be adjusted to full night rate if networks so decided and would still be only two rates in smart meter

jkforde

steady now.... but is the agile tariff (e.g. UK Octopus) even technically possible here if this smart meter configuration is problematic? is agile tariffing even in any blue sky planning?!

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120074934#Comment_120074934

It logs the data on 30 min "blocks", so you can slice-n-dice that usage profile any way you want. You could have it that every "odd" hour was 10c/unit, and then every "even" hour 15c/unit....whatever. No limit whatsoever as to how you want to define your tarrif. it's a software problem at the base station.

unkel

I was going to say I wish we had an operator like Octopus here. Until I had a look at their tariffs a few weeks ago 😶 I guess it's the market they are in, but it's pretty screwed up over there. This is the variable one with the cheapest night rate (compared to the 28c and 7.9c fixed(!) that I pay) :

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120077576#Comment_120077576

It would be fairer to compare to what we could get now, vs what we got before the price rises.

Also the energy guarantee is about 20p off the unit rate

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120077590#Comment_120077590

Indeed. Just looked at bonkers and Energia is 14c day and 48c night. Cheaper than Octopus (who might not be the cheapest in the UK), but not by much.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120077614#Comment_120077614

Currently, after April, unless there is an extension of the scheme. Them prices are going up 20p

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120077233#Comment_120077233

Yup, and that logging is contained on MCC16. It doesnt exist on MCC02. This is the issue. Standard 24hr customers can have a smart meter installed without any action (until it's activated) as there is no MCC change.

I'm not sure of the feasibility of a similar arrangement for MCC02. Without "Activating" it, how do you get day and night rates to show?

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120084496#Comment_120084496

Not sure I follow you mate. What I'm saying is that ESB Networks/suppliers have all the data. How much energy was used/when, broken down into blocks. it's up to them to define how and what tariff that each block falls into. This is how one supplier can define peak as 4pm-7pm, and another supplier peak from 5pm-8pm, they've just decided what rate to apply for that specific usage. So if you have a smart meter and you want to have a D/N tariff,you'd just allocate all the blocks from 11pm - 8am as "night rate" tarriff and 8am-11pm as day. Done.

No?

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120084866#Comment_120084866

No, the meter has to be configured to provide only Day and Night blocks, in order to be suitable for MCC02, and this isnt possible with the smart meters as they offer only 24hr readings (or 30 min readings online if activated). The meters cannot display on the meter themselves anything other than the 24hr readings (MCC01) - and this is why they are not suited currently for MCC02. The night rate MCC02 times change in winter and summer too so it's not a simple hard code. The reason MCC02 meters work so well for this is that they don't change time in daylight savings and the time on the meter is always (I think) winter time.

EDIT: Also networks have nothing to do with tariffs etc, they solely provide usage.

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120084893#Comment_120084893

But.... that doesn't make sense. They have all the telemetry. Maybe I'm mistaken, but apparently they can tell you if you switched on the kettle etc (presumably by looking at the usage profile and doing some AI to map the duration/power profile etc) so it's just a reporting issue at the base station (Energia, SSE, etc) to appropriate that to "some tariff". They (the suppliers) know how much has been used in each reporting window, so it's just an allocation problem.

Or are you saying that the whole problem with the smart meters with D/N is just that _on the physical device_ they can't display to the end user the different tariffs? If so.....that's moronic. Who cares what's on the physical device. Looking at a number on a dial is a throwback to yesteryear.....geez FFS!

(that negativity isnt' to you ELM - rather than to ESB Networks/suppliers)

td2008

So the current Smart meters can be configured as MCC01 (24HR , bimonthly reads) MCC16 (D/N/P bimonthly reads) , MCC12 (Interval data - daily)

There is no D/N unless you switch to MCC12 and go on a D/N plan that a supplier may provide - this is still not a like to like meter exchange though

The plan now seems to be for a new smart meter that can be configured as MCC02 , MCC16 and MCC12. So you can swap a legacy D/N meter for a new smart D/N meter

unkel

What even is all this MCCxx bullsh1t? The smart meters are all the same, aren't they? Why should they be configured in any way? They record import and export per 30 minutes slot, don't they? And this is transmitted presumably to both ESBn and the utility company? Isn't it just a matter for the algorithm at the utility company to do the billing based on the customer's plan, their discount, their "meter type"?

:confused:

td2008

Suppliers need to tell Networks what configuration they want the reads. Again, the interval data requires consent due to GDPR - this is the fundamental issue. Ideally you would have installed every smart meter as MCC12 (interval)

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120084932#Comment_120084932

They have the telemetry but they cannot unilaterally change the MCC of the customer as this affects customer tariffs and Networks cannot have any impact on tariffs.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120085556#Comment_120085556

MCC is meter configuration code. MCC01 is domestic 24hr. MCC02 is domestic day/night, MCC12 and MCC16 are smart meters. If you have a smart meter installed on MCC01, that's fine, as the meter is not activated. A total amount is still displayed on the meter and the customer(and all along the chain of supply) are billed as a 24hr customer. If you "activate" your smart meter you are moving MCC to 12 or 16, and this affects the tariffs available to you. This is why it's a customer initiated change, not the default. If you do nothing, the meter will remain as a 24hr meter.

Now, coming to night rate. If you do not activate the smart meter, the meter acts as MCC01. 24hr, and doesnt display day/night use. Unless you "activate" it. You cannot "activate" it and remain on MCC02, the meters are not currently configured to operate in that way. If you activate your smart meter you cannot get day night tariffs. (You can get smart tariffs with day night segments, but these are not the same as day night tariffs).

This is the crux of the issue. If it were so simple, it would have been done already. ESBn receive the 30 min data, only on meters that are in the category to do it of course, but it is only sent if you activate the meter. And you cannot activate the meter and remain on a non smart tariff.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120085130#Comment_120085130

Exactly. There is no like for like MCC02 replacement with the smart meter hardware currently available. Even the suggestion you make is not the same as MCC02 as there is day/night/peak. And not to mention that MCC16 day/night/peak rates are all much more expensive than the day/night mcc02 tariff.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120085655#Comment_120085655

You can't though. You could have installed every MCC01 meter as MCC12 or MCC16... thats fine.. as theres no impact to the customer.

td2008

MCC01 meters are installed as MCC01 meters as it is.

If consent was not an issue there would be a possibility of installing all the meters as MCC12 and let the supplier replicate the existing billing whether that is 24HR or D/N etc

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120085655#Comment_120085655

At the risk of speaking for unkel (who i think is of the same opinion as me), is that there seems to be a gap in understanding how a smart meter -can- work out (today!) if you are using electricity between 5pm and 7pm, and yet it can't seem to figure out that it's 11pm so night time rate. Seems like nonsense to me - but maybe I don't fully understand the problem, so maybe i can be enlightened.

What's the difference.....GDPR included.

PS:- Huge fan of GDPR in general, but in this case someone needs to have "a word with themselves".

td2008

You have two options for a "Smart" plan

You can go to MCC16 which is Day night and peak, but this will only provide 3 reads every 2 months so only gives you an aggregate level of data

i.e peak 5-7 for the whole 2 month period

If you want the granular daily data you need to go to interval which will give the 30 minute intervals daily

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120085862#Comment_120085862

Theres nothing to do with GDPR.

The meters dont display a simple count of day and night use. That is because they are not configured to do so.

They could configure a set of smart meters to provide two readings, one as day and one as night. This would be an effective replacement for MCC02.. without consent needed for tariff change or activation.

bullit_dodger

They don't make this easy to understand. I WANT to understand why the feck they can't seem to get it together (GDPR or some other nonsense), but I'm failing.

Description of Characteristics of Connection - DUoS and MCC Codes (esbnetworks.ie)

I just don't get it.

Either the device logs the stuff every 15/30 minutes .... or it doesn't. Not displaying this shite or that shite - it's all nonsense. Stuff should be done online anyway. You just want a device recording/setup for MCC11 and be done with it. I totally get that you can infer from your power usage personal data like when you leave the house, or when you come home from work, but that's all solvable.

Dunno - usually I like to give ESB networks the benifit of the doubt, but struggling here.

jkforde

so if the smart meter can be configured to register solely day and night units separately (effectively Day\Night metering, with billing cycle data granularity), then whhhhhy wasn't this done at the start of the whole process? disable the configuration until such time as a customer is switched to a smart meter and consents to stay on a Day\Night tarrif, all ESBN then would have to do would be to enable that specific configuration.

unkel

@bullit_dodger - "I totally get that you can infer from your power usage personal data like when you leave the house, or when you come home from work"

Not in my gaff. Nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use, nothing zero use....15kW o'clock 😮

td2008

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086012#Comment_120086012

Ideally there should have been a D/N smart meter from the beginning and just replace the meters like they did for 24HR but i suppose this is what's coming

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120085990#Comment_120085990

It doesnt log it unless you activate and consent to sending logs

Without that it's effectively the same as a dumb meter... except it measures Day Night and Peak, as well as export, instead of just day and night.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086034#Comment_120086034

This is what should be coming and it's the only one that makes sense.

I wouldnt be surprised if there wasnt a government instruction to ensure that all smart meters are configured to measure peak use in addition to day and night - and this is whats holding up the implementation of an MCC02 smart version

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086017#Comment_120086017

LOL - even your house mate, with your 40Kwh batteries!! Summer time where you are away, you won't be charging them up at 15kw o'clock, so someone could infer that your away on holliers, due to the lack of import into you gaff.....but I get your point :-)

But yeah talking about a "normal" house, I could looking at the data infer when someone came home, turned on the 9kw for a shower, how long they had a shower, when they turned on the microwave, ate dinner etc. Its amazing the sleuthing that you can do from a power profile!

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086017#Comment_120086017

Semi OT: I hit 16.5kW o clock last night. The only regret I have is that I couldnt scavenge the heat from the wires coming in lol

This connection between gdpr and smart meters is tenuous at best, and I'm a major opponent of smart metering as a whole.

unkel

@ELM327 - "I hit 16.5kW o clock last night. The only regret I have is that I couldnt scavenge the heat from the wires coming in lol"

Nice! 16kva supply I presume? I hit 15.1kW o'clock on 12kva

I did scavenge the heat. Charging and discharging the battery is my main source of heat for my garden room / shed. Must remember to tune down my inverter to 3kW tonight, 3 hours of 5kW continuous led to some rather warm cables 😁

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120085714#Comment_120085714

You cannot "activate" it and remain on MCC02, the meters are not currently configured to operate in that way. If you activate your smart meter you cannot get day night tariffs.

I think the bit that's confusing/frustrating here is that its not actually the meter is configured for MCC02. Your replies suggest its configured on the meter?!

The meter has no knowledge at all as to what MCC the customer has. It simply collects the data and sends it back to HQ with a 30min granularity.

What MCC the customer is on is entirely a function of the backend billing systems and its only the powers that be can explain why they wont (or haven't yet) supported MCC02 for smart meters. The meter doesn't care.

Someone else mentioned that it might be due to the fact that d/n customers are already limiting their peak usage anyway so they are not the primary focus initially so it looks like they simply decided to go after the low hanging fruit first and convert the 24hr customers first as that's the easy one... you are on 24hr and you switch to smart meter and you stay on 24hr by simply adding up all the 30min intervals to give you your 24hr usage figure.

The d/n tariff requires a little more software at the backend but its hardly rocket science. Its inexplicable really that they haven't offered it yet but I presume they will get to it and it wouldn't require new smart meters to support it... its just backend software updates to aggregate the data accordingly.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086329#Comment_120086329

No, 12kva. I priced an upgrade to the 16kva which would have required a change to a smart meter (!!!) so I cancelled it. 63a at 240v is 15kW anyway so the 12kva is more a branding than a real label. I doubt the different power factors would be 1.25!

I have an 80a fuse on the input to the house then one main and 2 sub boards - 2 63a and one 40a. The 40a is on one of the 63a.

So once I don't exceed 80a total or 63 respectively on the sub boards it's fine. The car chargers are on each of the 63a boards on their own 40a RCBO.

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086473#Comment_120086473

ESB Networks dont expect people to max out the connection to the fuse rating. The expectation is that you are operating below the fuse rating.

A 12kVA (60A ESB fuse) connection officially supports 52A averaged across a 10min interval (12kW/230V=52A) and 70A on a 16kVA(80A ESB fuse) connection. You can, of course, take it to the limit but you then run the risk of blowing their fuse, which you have to pay to replace.

The ESB fuse wont blow at 60A but if you draw 60A for hours on end it will eventually blow. Its not an exact science. It literally has to burn out rather than "trip".

I have an 80a fuse on the input to the house

Are you sure? Did ESBn confirm that? If you have an 80A fuse in the meter box you already have the enhanced supply.

unkel

If you have an 80A fuse, you have a 16kva supply

td2008

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086416#Comment_120086416

The meters do have a configuration that does relate to the MCC

The current meters read in the following format : 24 hour (MCC01), D/N/P (MCC16), Interval (MCC12) (also export but I'll ignore that)

The supplier then tells Networks which data to pull based on MCC