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Meter & Tariff Compatibility

  • 06-01-2023 8:50am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 12,122 ✭✭✭✭


    This isn't a controversial statement is it?


    I didn't think so but I've been fighting off arguments ever since I posted this on Facebook.


    People seem to refuse to recognise the difference in a day/night tariff, and a smart tariff that includes day/night rates (among others).



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Comments

  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 8,025 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jonathan


    No, not controversial, BUT the super secret day/night smart tariffs muddy the waters. These are smart tariffs which are functionally equivalent to a day/night tariff and are designed to get day/night users to migrate over to smart meters. @ECO_Mental was offered one recently.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269685/#Comment_119269685



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,942 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    That doesnt happen though - it was an opinion expressed on that post. I'll believe that when I see it. Suppliers seem to have either all decided , or more likely, all been instructed, not to offer D/N tariffs on smart meters. Phil's table above is correct.

    You can get smart tariffs with day/night/peak or day/night/ev boost or equivalent... but you cannot get the day night tariffs on a smart meter. Day night tariffs are 2300-0800. No 2 hours of "boost" etc. Night rates offer 13c/kwh for 9 hours. See current Energias tariff for new customers.


    EDIT: If you read the doc linked to in the post above, you will see they are not suggesting offering day/night tariff on a smart meter. They are suggesting changing customers from day/night tariffs to smart tariffs.

    ". ESBN propose to exchange a day/night MCC02 meter with a smart meter, set at MCC16 (Day, Night and Peak) on commissioning."



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,942 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Also this line indicates the end of day night tariffs and meters... not a mere meter exchange.

    The expectation is that suppliers would proactively contact the customer and begin a re-contracting journey prior to the exchange taking place.



  • Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭td2008




  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Yep

    Smart meters do not support MCC02 (day/night) tariffs.

    There may be equivalent time of use smart tariffs that have day/night/peak/night boost whatever but it's not the same tariff.

    Day night meters still have a 100odd euro higher standing charge though.

    The current situation re day/night and smart meter switchover still requires prior contact and can't just be swapped like a 24hr meter



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,963 ✭✭✭jkforde


    this would indeed be good news

    🌦️ 6.7kwp, 45°, SSW, mid-Galway 🌦️



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,963 ✭✭✭jkforde


    thank god I copped on in time and swapped 24h to DN meter... they can take their time

    🌦️ 6.7kwp, 45°, SSW, mid-Galway 🌦️



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,281 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    I refuse to believe that a smart meter can not do day / night. It simply doesn't make sense. It collects grid import and grid export data per 30 minute period, doesn't it? This data is then automatically sent to the utility provider, isn't it?


    So by definition the utility company can then bill the end user exactly like a day / night meter by adding up the grid import data from the 30 half hour periods from 8AM to 23PM as day rate and the 18 half hour periods from 23PM to 8AM as night rate.


    They can, but obviously somehow they don't or won't or were told not to or something else. As @ELM327 suggested.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,330 ✭✭✭bullit_dodger


    100% - no technical reason whatsoever.

    I've been saying it for months. D/N people are the last to migrate to Smart meters as one of the primary functions of smart meters is to help curb peak usage specifically at dinner time. People with D/N have already "done this work" by moving their loads from day time to night time. If you don't move 20%-30% of your load to night time, D/N actually costs you more than Daytime due to the higher standing charges.

    Makes sense then that they would leave this demographic until last to migrate if you have a multi-year project you want to move the people who will have the most effect first.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,426 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    The root cause here is not the Smart Meter, it the human incompetence in ESB Networks who have their monopoly and are belligerently holding on to it



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,942 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Exactly. But I suspect they (ESBn) wont or can't put this functionality in MCC02 for some users but not others. This is why "activating" a smart meter moves you from MCC01 to MCC16 (and 12 I think?). MCC01 is only for standard 24hr tariffs. This is how they got around it for MCC01 customers. They can install smart meters without changing your tariff from MCC01 - and it only changes when you "activate".

    There is no technical reason why the smart meters cannot be set as day night meters as you say, match the half hour slots to day night meter times, and then you can install a smart meter and keep the MCC02 as is. I do suspect that something else may be afoot, possibly the removal of MCC02 altogether, and this is what's delaying it. Otherwise they would simply have done as above and configured the smart meters to match day night times and installed. The only blocker - which is in every CRU, ESBN etc paper on the topic - is that MCC02 defines your tariff with your supply company. Networks are a third party to that contract and cannot interfere unilaterally. Any changes have to either leave you on MCC02 or remove MCC02 entirely at a network level.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 8,025 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jonathan


    Did you not read the link posted by @td2008 above? It explains what the plan is; smart meters configured for MCC02.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,145 ✭✭✭irishchris


    Send like a proposed suggestion rather than definite but would be good to see it happening



  • Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭td2008


    To get the interval data the supplier would need to get the customers consent - if that is given the meter can be configured to MCC12 to provide the interval reads. This would be more tricky as the roll out could not be Networks led as proposed in the DR I've linked above.

    Once a customer is on MCC12 the day could be split however you want as you say - it does seem that all suppliers are encouraged to push a peak in their time of use tariffs though



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,942 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Yes I did read it, but currentlty that is not feasible. It's an oft quoted link.

    This is still the most likely solution



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,145 ✭✭✭irishchris


    Definitely should be able to be done. For example I'm on smart plan with pinergy which has day rate and 3 hour ev rate only with no night or peak rate. That EV rate could be adjusted to full night rate if networks so decided and would still be only two rates in smart meter



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,963 ✭✭✭jkforde


    steady now.... but is the agile tariff (e.g. UK Octopus) even technically possible here if this smart meter configuration is problematic? is agile tariffing even in any blue sky planning?!

    🌦️ 6.7kwp, 45°, SSW, mid-Galway 🌦️



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,330 ✭✭✭bullit_dodger


    It logs the data on 30 min "blocks", so you can slice-n-dice that usage profile any way you want. You could have it that every "odd" hour was 10c/unit, and then every "even" hour 15c/unit....whatever. No limit whatsoever as to how you want to define your tarrif. it's a software problem at the base station.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,281 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    I was going to say I wish we had an operator like Octopus here. Until I had a look at their tariffs a few weeks ago 😶 I guess it's the market they are in, but it's pretty screwed up over there. This is the variable one with the cheapest night rate (compared to the 28c and 7.9c fixed(!) that I pay) :





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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    It would be fairer to compare to what we could get now, vs what we got before the price rises.

    Also the energy guarantee is about 20p off the unit rate



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,281 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Indeed. Just looked at bonkers and Energia is 14c day and 48c night. Cheaper than Octopus (who might not be the cheapest in the UK), but not by much.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Currently, after April, unless there is an extension of the scheme. Them prices are going up 20p



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,942 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Yup, and that logging is contained on MCC16. It doesnt exist on MCC02. This is the issue. Standard 24hr customers can have a smart meter installed without any action (until it's activated) as there is no MCC change.

    I'm not sure of the feasibility of a similar arrangement for MCC02. Without "Activating" it, how do you get day and night rates to show?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,330 ✭✭✭bullit_dodger


    Not sure I follow you mate. What I'm saying is that ESB Networks/suppliers have all the data. How much energy was used/when, broken down into blocks. it's up to them to define how and what tariff that each block falls into. This is how one supplier can define peak as 4pm-7pm, and another supplier peak from 5pm-8pm, they've just decided what rate to apply for that specific usage. So if you have a smart meter and you want to have a D/N tariff,you'd just allocate all the blocks from 11pm - 8am as "night rate" tarriff and 8am-11pm as day. Done.

    No?



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,942 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    No, the meter has to be configured to provide only Day and Night blocks, in order to be suitable for MCC02, and this isnt possible with the smart meters as they offer only 24hr readings (or 30 min readings online if activated). The meters cannot display on the meter themselves anything other than the 24hr readings (MCC01) - and this is why they are not suited currently for MCC02. The night rate MCC02 times change in winter and summer too so it's not a simple hard code. The reason MCC02 meters work so well for this is that they don't change time in daylight savings and the time on the meter is always (I think) winter time.


    EDIT: Also networks have nothing to do with tariffs etc, they solely provide usage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,330 ✭✭✭bullit_dodger


    But.... that doesn't make sense. They have all the telemetry. Maybe I'm mistaken, but apparently they can tell you if you switched on the kettle etc (presumably by looking at the usage profile and doing some AI to map the duration/power profile etc) so it's just a reporting issue at the base station (Energia, SSE, etc) to appropriate that to "some tariff". They (the suppliers) know how much has been used in each reporting window, so it's just an allocation problem.

    Or are you saying that the whole problem with the smart meters with D/N is just that _on the physical device_ they can't display to the end user the different tariffs? If so.....that's moronic. Who cares what's on the physical device. Looking at a number on a dial is a throwback to yesteryear.....geez FFS!

    (that negativity isnt' to you ELM - rather than to ESB Networks/suppliers)



  • Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭td2008



    So the current Smart meters can be configured as MCC01 (24HR , bimonthly reads) MCC16 (D/N/P bimonthly reads) , MCC12 (Interval data - daily)

    There is no D/N unless you switch to MCC12 and go on a D/N plan that a supplier may provide - this is still not a like to like meter exchange though

    The plan now seems to be for a new smart meter that can be configured as MCC02 , MCC16 and MCC12. So you can swap a legacy D/N meter for a new smart D/N meter



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,281 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    What even is all this MCCxx bullsh1t? The smart meters are all the same, aren't they? Why should they be configured in any way? They record import and export per 30 minutes slot, don't they? And this is transmitted presumably to both ESBn and the utility company? Isn't it just a matter for the algorithm at the utility company to do the billing based on the customer's plan, their discount, their "meter type"?

    :confused:



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  • Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭td2008


    Suppliers need to tell Networks what configuration they want the reads. Again, the interval data requires consent due to GDPR - this is the fundamental issue. Ideally you would have installed every smart meter as MCC12 (interval)



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