Boards DCM22 Graduates Thread - A Deeper Understanding

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120557640#Comment_120557640

Poxy stuff P, although your attitude to it is fantastic.

Good that you're on the other side of it somewhat in terms of being able to do some gentle base work.

I would seriously consider ditching the idea of the Bru Na Boinne 5k for now. It's a little soon at only 5 weeks away. I mean that in terms of tuning yourself up for it. 5k stuff is probably a little too intense right now.

Go and run it after a few weeks of easy running for sure. Get yourself back fully healthy.

MisterJinx

Thanks @Lazare there will be no 5k tuning up! I'll be doing base and just run the race rather than race the race! Really don't want to go backwards so I'll keep it all in check

masterK

A bit of an update from me.

It's less than 4 weeks now to the Cork marathon. The training has went pretty much to plan though I'm at that point now where I've had enough of it and just want to get to the big day.

Last week I did 90km in total which was easily my highest weekly total. That included a midweek 23k and 35k at the weekend. I kept the pace pretty slow for the 35k, it was actually the longest I've ever run without stopping to walk for a bit. I felt pretty Ok at the end of it which I was pleasantly surprised by.

I'd another decent achievement a couple of weeks back when I took over 3 minutes off my 10k PB in the Maynooth 10k. (I hadn't run 10k in ages so I'd sort of expected to take a good chunk off my previous.

This week is another tough week with around 90k to cover again, the 35k weekend run has a decent portion of it at MP so I'll really have a good idea of how I stand after that.

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574268#Comment_120574268

Excellent stuff masterK, fantastic mileage. Congrats on that whopper 10k pb too.

At this point what are you thinking is realistic for Cork?

masterK

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120581344#Comment_120581344

Cheers. My current thought process is to go out at around 3:50 pace and see how it goes. I've 3 goals in mind, sub 3:45 would be amazing, around 3:50ish would be pretty good and getting under the 4 hours would still be great as it would still be 20 minutes quicker than Dublin.

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582235#Comment_120582235

Brilliant.

Your LR this weekend should help cement that for you and hopefully give you confidence.

Remember though that MP will feel harder this weekend than it will on race day. So make sure you allow for that, in terms of your confidence.

MisterJinx

Little update again! Last physio session done and I seem to be well on the mend. Knee brace is off and the calves and Achillies are in much better shape now 👌

I've been good keeping to easy pace and have built up each week with almost rigorous discipline for the last 5 weeks. I was able last week to add in 2x5 min tempo blocks and this week 15 mins over 3 blocks, nothing overly hard but great to get some of the other muscle groups going.

Last week was good at 66k for the week and the easy runs really started to feel easy with the legs just turning over, nice to get back to that!

This week is a step back week as I'd a work doo last night and family stuff over the weekend so planned to do a little less and take the recovery and go again next week.

Lazare

Fair play P, you're doing everything right.

Patience with it is so important and not something most of us have.

arknine

Ran my first marathon in Edinburgh yesterday - sharing the race report here as I was a longtime lurker over the past 7 months... any thoughts, feedback or comments on what I might improve??

Background

Just turned 50 this year (50M) and started running (again) in Oct’22 from a base of zero exercise for the past five years (excepting having 3 small boys (5,7,&9) and the hustle of daily life, family walks, family activities etc. In 2014 I did a C25k and between 2014-2017 started to run commute into work averaging about 10km per week over this period - (2014 - 900km; 2015 - 500km; 2016 - 650km; 2017 (jan-aug) - 500km). This culminated in a half-marathon race (Rock n Roll Dublin) in 2017 for which I didn’t follow a training plan but did a few longer runs of 13k(ish) and finished in c. 1:48 (ran out of steam at c.19k and had to run/walk a couple of times to finish). Before 2014 - there was no exercise/running/training/gym - I was relatively ‘active’ but no sports/activities to note.

In October last year (‘22), I decided to go for a run to see how it felt and surprised myself by running 7km @ 6:10/km pace. I enjoyed it, and decided to get back running with a vague aspiration to complete a marathon in my 50th year….

Training

… so I started training. Decided in November to book a bib in the Edinburgh marathon, figuring that 7 months should give me a decent enough training block. Avg went from 50km/week to 100km/week over this period.

Month-Distance-Avg Pace

Nov- 216km@6:16/km

Dec- 321km@6:07/km

Jan- 284km@5:26/km

Feb- 237km@5:25/km

Mar- 291km@5:19km

Apr- 412km@5:07/km

May- 305km@5:00/km

Didn’t follow a specific plan (per se), generally ran 5 or 6 days a week with one long run (5:00/km to 5:30/km), one medium/tempo type run (4:40/km to 5:00/km), three easy runs (5:20/km) and a sprinkling of ParkRuns.

I had no (observable) issues in stepping up the mileage over this period, two small injury niggles,one in Nov and one in Feb, and I rested with no reoccurrence of either. I self-diagnosed regularly occurring foot pain as a Mortons Neuroma (flared up after c.9km and could be run through - but painful) and went through a variety of shoe types to lessen the flare-ups. Settled on Altra’s and roomy footbox, which worked for me.

Parkrun (5k) times went from 25:26 (Oct’22) to 19:06 (May’22) over this period.

Other notable times -

10k times - avg sub-45mins on tempo/fast runs

Half-marathons - (did over 20 runs at this distance over the 7 months) ran x2 sub 1:40 and x1 sub 1:34 during the block (not races, just fast/tempo runs)

In Mar&Apr’23 I completed x5 long runs >30km (longest @33km) and a further x2 (27km & 29km) as part of the build up.

I trained with SIS gels and a water bottle filled with Tailwind mix during the long-runs and they settled ok, a little queasy but ok (I did all other runs (<27km) without nutrition or water)

The <1:35 half-marathon was the last fast/long run before the start of the taper (from 100km to 80km (wk1) to 55km (wk2) to 25km (wk3)).

Plan & Pre-race

All marathon time predictors (runalyze; metathon; crplots) had me at a 3:10 to 3:12 marathon time based on my strava logs - I felt this was optimistic (4:34/km) as I had a tendency to drift (pace & heartrate) on longer runs. Based on the half-marathon times in the training block I felt i could sustain close to that pace for maybe 30km - but >40km would be a push - so settled on the following plan for race day:

First 16km (10 miles) at 4:40/km, next 16km (10miles) at 4:50/km, last 10km to keep legs moving and hold-on to the finish. Goal A - was to run a sub 3:25.

Pre-race prep was unremarkable - flew to Scotland (from Dublin) on Friday evening - ate well Fri/Sat (lots of pasta, steak, bread) slept ok . Collected bib Saturday morning, pottered around the city for a couple of hours , rested the rest of the day.

Race day morning, grabbed a banana, coffee, croissant - had 500ml of tailwind c. 2 hours before start - greased myself up (sunscreen & anti-chafe), bathroom, checked bag, warmed-up (stretches/gentle jog). Fuelling plan for the race was a gel every 6km topped-up with Tailwind which I carried in a hand-held bottle. Weather was warm and overcast at the start (10am)

Race

Start was largely downhill for the first 8km, and I tried to keep the pace under control. Legs felt strong and were turning-over well. Despite best efforts, the combination of the downhill, first marathon excitement, over-confidence, other runners pace, me being an idiot, had the first 8km in c.4:35/km pace - which was faster than intended, but not wildly so. The course then hit the sea front and the breeze helped to take the edge off the pace and I settled into the target pace of 4:40/km (-ish) for the next 8km.

Took the gels at 6km, 12km and 18km and sipped from the hand-held bottle (tailwind) throughout. I grabbed a few gulps from the on-course water as I ran-by. Weather started to warm-up as the sun broke through the clouds.

Hit 16km feeling good - slightly ahead of target pace and the race-plan was to run the second 16km at an avg 4:50/km so I eased off a little to adjust to plan. Hit half marathon in 1:38ish which was ahead of plan, but I felt ok, knew I had completed a 1:34 half a few weeks back and the race-strategy was to target 4:50/km from 16k to 32k.

Then things changed at around 23/24k mark - legs started to lose some power which came as a surprise, I also started to feel a little nauseous. I skipped taking the planned gel at 24k as i felt i would be ill if i forced it down.

At 25k I just couldn’t hold a sub5:00/km pace at all. I recognised that I was in trouble and it was barely half-way through. Resolved to move to my long-run pace for the training block at 5:20/km and hoped this could see me through to the end. Took a gel at 30k and temperatures were getting warmer. Despite all the difficulties I hit 30k in 2:24 (avg. 4:50km) but i was weakening and getting worried.

When I reached 32k in the marathon I knew I was fucked, pace had slipped to 6:00/km, sun was beating down, other runners were struggling, and I started negotiating with myself to just. keep. running.

By 35k I had to start run/walking as my legs had completely gone. I was gutted but there was nothing left in the tank. Walking through the two water stations I could actually drink the bottles of water and was surprised at how thirsty/dehydrated I was. Pace times dropped off as I continued to run/walk for the next 5k. Nearing the end I gave it everything I had to run the final 2k.

Crossed the finish in 3:43

Post-Race

Disappointed I couldn't run the whole 42k but recognise sub 3:45 is an achievement for a 50year old (couch to marathon in 7 months).

Hard to rationalise what went wrong here - initial thoughts:

1). Over-fatigued / over-trained - despite feeling strong during training this was not actually the case - taper ineffective (??)

2). Target pace too aggressive - over-confident/ego/greedy - did not respect the distance - went out too fast

3). Fuelling/hydration was wrong - sweated too much -relied on tailwind - did not take enough water on-course - skipped gel at 24k

probably a combination of all of the above factors.....

Next Steps

i) Rest for a week or two ii) Start structured plan (Pfitz. 18/55 or 18/70 ??) for Dublin Marathon

Lazare

First of all congrats on what is incredibly impressive improvement over such a short time frame. Also, welcome to the thread (to anyone else lurking, please join in 🙂).

I can see a couple of issues. I think your race pace plan was flawed. I don't think it's a wise idea to plan a positive split. You can't 'bank time' over the marathon distance. You certainly did go out too fast and faced the all too common blow up.

I think though that the main and overriding reason was possibly running too fast on average in your build up.

Just basing that on your monthly average paces. Those preceeding three months shouldn't really see an increase to that degree, should be fairly static. That static average should certainly be slower I would suggest.

You certainly do have massive potential with the right approach.

I've just started delving into the Hanson method and I would highly recommend it.

Would also recommend dipping into the marathon improvers thread.

You ran a great debut marathon in terms of the clock. Take lessons from it to smash it in Dublin..

Whatever you do there though, don't go out too fast. Dublin will punish it.

Lazare

Curious by what you mean by getting your target via your Strava logs, how does that work?

Kellygirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653849#Comment_120653849

Hi Arknine,

Well done on your first marathon! It’s a shame it turned into such a slog. I’ve a couple of questions.

1. What was your hydration like for the week leading up to the marathon?
2. You mention food the day before? What about the few days before?
3. Maybe your taper was not enough? You more or less raced a half marathon 2-3 weeks before? The 1:34?
4. The 1:34 marathon would indicate a 3:15 full marathon based on the Tinman calculator and probably say to add on 10-20 mins to that for your first marathon which would be 4:48 pace say … you possibly went out too fast and burnt yourself out and with the warm weather too it just killed you?

They would be my initial thoughts. Somebody may spot something else?

arknine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655335#Comment_120655335

thanks for your thoughts and comments

here are my (disappointing) responses :

1. hydration for the prior week was the same as usual, which is to say, poor
2. again, my diet in the prior week was unfocused , I was on the road a fair bit, so grabbed salads/sandwiches on the hoof, then hoovered up whatever leftovers from the kids when I got home
3. yes/no/don’t know - the 1,34 wasn’t raced but was at the upper end of the tempo pace ie a comfortable hard push (if that makes sense) , this was two weeks out, and the last fast session, I had already reduced mileage c.25% that week. I do have an issue running intervals, and tend to pick a pace and hold it from start to finish for a run (so long way to agreeing that running 21k above marathon pace 2 weeks out is probably not sensible)
4. agree, I think also that my aerobic base just isn’t broad or deep enough. Jumping from 0km to 55km per week in a month, then to 100km per week within 5months is just not long enough to provide the engine I need to hold that pace (currently).

lots to think about. I wasn’t totally naive with regard to fuelling but had not fully embraced the carb-loading concept (and pre-hydration) with only a glancing nod towards that.

my taper was loose and I should have capped the faster Km’s within more structured sessions and not held them for the entire run.….. and yes probably too fast at the start, but I promise I was trying really hard to slow it right down!

roll on Dublin in October and a chance to tweak the preparation and approach and get it nailed next time out.

arknine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655295#Comment_120655295

https://crplot.com/index.php

https://www.metathon.com/dashboard

https://runalyze.com/dashboard

all variations on the same theme whereby you link your strava account and they analyse your mileage and paces over the preceding 8 weeks (or so) and model estimated finish times....

IMG_0501.png

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Pawwed Rig

@arknine congratulations on marathon number 1. That is a great time. Don't worry about the blow up at the end. It is something to learn from.

@Lazare gels every 6k like arknine yay or nay. I was taking 1 an hour and think I would be sick taking them every 30 mins. However I am open to increasing intake. What is the established thought on it?

Haven't posted myself since Belfast. Reduced the running a bit over the last month doing 4 runs/week instead of the 5. I took 4 or 5 days off after the marathon. Tendons have been sore since but ive been largely taking it handy (other than 1 5k where I missed pb by 4 secs ☹). The heat is a killer for me wrt running.

arknine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655267#Comment_120655267

thank you for the warm welcome!

yeah, with regard to the positive split, not the best plan, but in my eyes i thought i was leaning into my tendency to lose some pace over the course of the long runs and thereby account for it 🫣

i think the progression in the three months was heightened by the very low base i was coming from as well, but fair comment, i wanted my easy runs to be finished quicker , which is a recipe for running too fast 🫣🫣

will read up on hanson as well over the next two weeks and commit to a structured plan , thank you.

... and now as i am officially marathoner (and hopefully an improver) i'll go do some lurking there as well 😊

#noted re:Dublin 🏃‍♂️🥵💥

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655696#Comment_120655696

You've an absolutely fantastic attitude, and positive mindset. Exactly what you need.

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655679#Comment_120655679

Hey PR, no harm at all scaling things back a little. 4 days per week is great consistent running, nice one.

Re fuelling, the accepted wisdom is 30 - 60g per hour. Gels are what generally, about 22 - 25g?

Every 30 mins or so seems optimal I would think, but every 45 should keep you well fuelled also.

@Kellygirl has a lot more knowledge in this area and may be able to steer better.

It's actually something I feel I need to improve on myself.

Kellygirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655532#Comment_120655532

Yep, you can take loads from this to nail Dublin. I was drinking 3-4L water a day the few days before Dublin last year with 2 salt tablets a day too. It was 94/95% humidity that day and a lot of people struggled. I did too at the latter stages but think I would have been a complete goner if I hadn’t been so well hydrated prior to it. Nutrition is so so important too. You don’t have to stuff yourself but assuming you are eating well then you would just be upping your carb intake by another 300 calories or so (2 slice of toast and jam, some rice cakes) on top of a good diet the few days before. Fill those muscles with glycogen.

Have a look at the marathon improvers thread but feel free to join the mentored novice thread too. You aren’t exactly a novice but we’ll be covering all this closer to Dublin and route specific info etc.

Kellygirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655679#Comment_120655679

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655786#Comment_120655786

You don’t have to just take gels … there are lots of options to increase carbs. You can mix and match. You can also use carb drinks along with gels. Tailwind is great. It’s a carb and electrolyte powder and you sip it every mile to keep yourself topped up. Obviously carrying a liquid can be a pain but a number of us bought soft squishy bottles from Decathlon last year, put the tailwind powder in and added water en route. Decathlon had these handy belts to carry them. I found I could hack Maurten gels every half hour. Some of the others are too sickly. Trial and error. Lots of people think it’s great not to fuel during long training runs. I’d be of the opinion it’s better to to fuel all of them practising different types of fuel. You also have the benefit then that you recover faster after a long run and shouldn’t be exhausted for the rest of the day … and no bother getting back to training either straight away.

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653849#Comment_120653849

An impressive debut all round. The others have identified the most obvious areas for improvement: better structure, better hydration, better pacing on the day. It's hard to get all this right, and much harder first time out. Your 5k time suggests you have potential to really knock big lumps out of that M time as you improve but the first step is to develop the endurance, and that takes years really. The good news is that 50 is not that old to be starting out and you can look forward to at least a decade and more of improvement, with the right approach. The more mileage you clock up (at the right intensity), the more adapted your body becomes to running the marathon distance and the more improvement you will see from year to year. Lazare's Hanson suggestion is excellent - I would definitely recommend it over P&D. It's simpler, but just as relentless.

Best of luck!

Lumen

arknine, forgive my arguments from ignorance, I'm new to this sport myself but IMO critical pieces of information are

1. You slow down during long runs despite fuelling with gels.

2. Your average run pace is very fast.

This suggests you have been mostly running on glycogen and glucose, and have underdeveloped aerobic base despite high volume. This makes performance over long distances fragile because if you mess up the fuelling e.g. due to dehydration and therefore inadequate carb absorption your fallback (fat burning) place is cripplingly low.

Solution is plenty of genuine fasted Z2 and only speed up (if you must) after the first hour, i.e. progression runs, because as soon as you speed up you'll switch to glycogen and probably won't go back for the rest of the run.

Your ability to absorb high volume pacy running is very impressive but maybe leave the speed for fast sessions.

Happy to be swiftly corrected by those with more running experience.

On the other hand maybe you have a godlike digestion, are destined for Ironman greatness and just need to sort out your hydration 😀

arknine

Thanks Lumen,

I think what you say about me having an underdeveloped aerobic base (despite high volume) due to high avg run pace makes sense and resonates with me.

progression runs, as you suggest, might be helpful here, but I need to get back to slow and consistent z2 kms

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667604#Comment_120667604

Z2 is essential- but to achieve optimal training efficiency you should be incorporating a comprehensive regimen that encompasses a variety of running techniques. To enhance endurance, prioritize engaging in Z2 runs while also integrating LT (lactate threshold), VO2 max, and steady runs into your routine. For VO2 max workouts, consider performing 10 sets of 400-meter intervals, which will significantly elevate your cardiovascular capacity. Additionally, focus on completing 3 to 4 intervals ranging from 1 to 1.6 kilometers at LT pace to further develop your ability to sustain a high-intensity effort. Incorporating hill sprints throughout the week will amplify the benefits derived from Z2 training, leading to significant performance improvements.

Lumen

This 2010 article possibly meets the criteria of "deeper understanding". 😀

Metabolic Factors Limiting Performance in Marathon Runners https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2958805/

Pawwed Rig

Can someone explain what Z2 is? I am sure I am not the only one who has no idea wtf the last few posts are about 🤣

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120674978#Comment_120674978

It basically means easy, or very easy running. It stands for Zone 2, a bpm range in heart rate training.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120674994#Comment_120674994

Thanks

So what is a "genuine fasted Z2"?

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675002#Comment_120675002

Running on an empty stomach, fasted. Idea being that you train the body to become more efficient at burning fat as a fuel source. Working those systems in your training really.

Carb depletion.

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675002#Comment_120675002

Get up early in the morning and go for a slow easy run before you eat anything.