NI Dec 22 Assembly Election

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120645105#Comment_120645105

So you would be in favour of the legacy bill from the British?

Forget it all?

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120645133#Comment_120645133

Yes tbh, under the GFA murderers on both sides were released, pills that were hard were swallowed by the majority.

Remember the victims, move on from the blame.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120645443#Comment_120645443

The victims vehemently don’t want that though.

The truth is uncomfortable but we should never stop pursuing it.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120645001#Comment_120645001

But that’s ok. Let’s acknowledge the suffering and pain. We don’t need a million complex reasons present as to why.

if someone is stabbed, raped, mugged, etc of course there are always backstories as to why the perpetrators ended up subjecting the victim to trauma - but we don’t need to here it. It would be absurd to give a section in auschwits over to explaining backstories to why the guards led children in.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120645443#Comment_120645443

Agree

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120645481#Comment_120645481

Then they need to move on, plenty have, our new LLS host is one of them.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120645790#Comment_120645790

Any time something like this happens, the can of worms of who is really a victim gets opened, Downcow. That's my point.

What I'm questioning is whether you would have the stomach for having those killed who were connected to paramilitaries acknowledged and remembered, or are you only interested in those you perceived as victims?

If you make it subjective, it achieves nothing because we end up stuck on the narrative debate like we did earlier, where you're insisting that someone was just a local garage owner despite their links to the UVF while stonewalling any acknowledgement from the other side. It becomes just another exercise in the blame game; an outward expression of our problems with moving on rather than a solution to it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120645838#Comment_120645838

When victims say they don't want that then by imposing it you add another toxic layer to what they are going through. A 'museum' in an environment where you impose forgeting would be a hollow gesture to be honest.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120646121#Comment_120646121

I would not restrict it and would not allow the great and good to control it. It should be in sections eg different rooms. Republicans should have total and absolute control over one area. Tell the story of their suffering at the hands of whoever. I think there should be parameters in place for all. I think it probably shouldn’t get into why stuff happened because that is an endless circle of blame. Rather what happened and who done it to them.

eg it should not be an opportunity to throw around accusations because that also ends up in republicans talking about loyalist drug dealing and no doubt then unionists talking about Ira child abuse. Some sensible parameters would remove that.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120645481#Comment_120645481

What is the advantage in pursuing ‘truth’ and what is truth?

take one fairly average atrocity in ni recent history. The events in Londonderry in the early 70s known to some as Bloody Sunday. I don’t know the figure was it several £100m spent. Lawyers made wealthy (I wonder was there ever a breakdown of where the money went). What do that honestly achieve.

Cameron made a hollow apology (does anybody really believe that he cared. His advisors told him you need to say these few words and we are sorted)

republicans got scraps of info to say the army should not have done what they done

unionists got scraps of stuff to confirm the Ira started it and the bonus for them was none other than MMcG fired first shot.

was there money paid to families? - I don’t even know

so do you really want this replicated 3,000 times.

its a nonsense. Some who lose family in any circumstances want the whole truth, others would prefer not to know the finer details. Whether car accident, mistake by doctors, terrorism, etc, etc. the fact some want to know is not a reason to throw massive resources at it.

Its like if someone is killed by lung cancer, should there be a multi million £ enquiry to decide was the cause cigarettes and could Gallagher’s have prevented it.

just reading a stat there that from WHO. The money used in Londonderry to understand why 14 people died would save over 100,000 lives if invested in healthcare in low-income countries. So it is complicated and equality is complicated.

in my view it is time to have a permanent honest acknowledgment to hurt on all sides and move forward. No more enquiries

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120646371#Comment_120646371

Had the British told the truth about it, that money could have been saved.

You say you want to forget and move on and let people tell their own stories but in that post you just cannot resist telling your demeaning and disparaging version.

‘fairly average atrocity’?

’hollow apology’

’the IRA started it’

then the bizarre idea that ‘Unionists’ got or needed to ‘get something’ from an inquiry.

You are a long way off approaching truth or acknowledgment in a fair way.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120646403#Comment_120646403

What a spin. and full of untruths

i used a phrase I heard often from republicans ie that it was a hollow apology

also it was a average atrocity in ni terms The term atrocity in ni usually is linked to stiff like Omagh (30), Shankill (9), BS (13), La Mon (12), kingsmill (10), Monaghan’s & Dublin, etc You can do the sums yourself BS was a fairly average atrocity in ni terms the point is that those sums could be spent on many atrocities

and read my post again I said that unionist took what the wanted ie in their eyes it confirm that MMcG fired first shot

My point is that these very expensive inquiries achieve little.

do you think there should be a similar inquiry into all troubles related deaths - and indeed all premature deaths ?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120646520#Comment_120646520

It isn't your place to say what they 'achieve'.

You were not quoting anybody when you asked this question of us. You wanted to demean the apology.

Cameron made a hollow apology (does anybody really believe that he cared. His advisors told him you need to say these few words and we are sorted)

and you didn't say 'Unionists took what they wanted...' again you implied the inquiry was something for them, it wasn't. You present it as a 'gain' for Unionism...appaling really.

unionists got scraps of stuff to confirm the Ira started it and the bonus for them was none other than MMcG fired first shot.

And finally, an 'atrocity' is an atrocity, there is no such thing as an average one to vicitms, if you care about them. If I said, 'sure Kingsmill was an average atrocity, get over it' which was the tone of what you said, I doubt you would be silent.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120646555#Comment_120646555

I am not going any further on this as I was responding to your claim that all victims want the truth and that should be our goal. You are taking this further and further off topic. But I can’t leave it without responding to the disgraceful misquoting of me.

firstly I was quoting what I hear from republicans about the apology.

I did not present it as a win for anyone. Quite the contrary. I presented it as a win for no one.

….and as for your disgraceful ‘get over it’ comment. . I done exactly the opposite. I equated atrocities that cause hurt to this day in my community and other communities. You even contradict yourself by saying I’d be annoyed if you said ‘get over’ kingsmill. Exactly the point. I don’t expect people to ‘get over’ BS.

and your point about if you said kingsmill was a fairly average atrocity in ni terms, I would by angry with you. Each has their specific darker issues that may be different eg BS was carried out by soldiers of the crown and in Kingsmill the perpetrators separated Protestants from Catholics before selecting one group to assassinate. Two different elements but both important aspects to victims families.

now I will resist responding to whatever you come back with as this is off topic.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120646585#Comment_120646585

It is not for you to decide what victims want. Neither is it the Bitish governments place.

What we know is victims groups from both sides are vehemently opposed to 'forced forgetting'.

If you truly care you'd be supporting them before supporting an attempt to cover up.

Fionn1952

While there is undoubtedly an argument to be made that we'd be better putting a line under it all and moving on, I'm certainly not going to tell their families that they should just forget about it.

My bigger issue is that an awful lot of people calling for an end to enquiries REALLY mean, 'let's just pretend British army coverups didn't happen'. An awful lot don't give a sh*t about moving on, they just want to avoid any spotlight on British state forces. We saw enough of those people's attitude towards David Cleary, David Holden or Dennis Hutchings.

downcow

Back to whether stormont will get up and running. I live amongst the unionist community and I honestly don’t know. I think it is more likely it will get up and running in the autumn than not, but it is by no means guaranteed.

if it does get going it will be important to the dup that they have managed to get something re improving links/access to Uk. If they don’t have something to present then they will be in trouble again. They clearly made gains over the last year but people need a little more. Then I think many of us will look forward to labour easing connections with eu for whole of Uk. Whether that be rejoining or otherwise

pixelburp

"we should forget an move on... except when I want to score points and snark".

I'd be interested to know what the Spanish reflection is on their Pact of Forgetting, given that's precisely what they did when Franco died and democracy took hold.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120646371#Comment_120646371

one thing unionism and the british government doesn't want out is the truth. too late as it'll all eventually come out

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120648671#Comment_120648671

Good to know, one thing i'd love to know before i die is was Gerry ever actually in the 'RA.

Do you not see the issue with pursuing truth? It's unobtainable. Pursuing truth in relation to the troubles is really pursuing blame.

People are no longer being murdered, why is that? Any chance it was to do with forgiving and forgetting?

The true impact of the GFA is only going to be felt when everyone who can't forgive and forget is dead and their hate and anger can't be understood.

Looks like we're going to have to wait for that.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120648781#Comment_120648781

And not pursuing the truth is hiding from it.

I suspect this whole ‘you can’t pursue the truth’ has to do with the above.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120648819#Comment_120648819

The above?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120648874#Comment_120648874

Your plea not to keep pursuing the truth.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120648671#Comment_120648671

This is just crazy. Is there anybody doesn’t believe that the ira has more desperately embarrassing skeletons in their cupboard than anyone else.

forget about what current sitting politicians have done for the moment. Also forget about the planing meetings and authorisation from the top, of all the blatantly sectarian attacks etc or the facilitation of child abuse, rape, extortion, robberies etc. set them all aside and look at just what they done on their own members.

The nutting squad was interrogating (torturing) ‘good’ ‘honest’ IRA men, breaking them and declaring them guilty of being informants and then taking them to some dark secluded bog to be assinated. The blackening them and their families name for all time. So the broken mother and father were not just grieving for their son but dealing with the awful shame and doubt. I despise the Ira but I feel for those families and even those tortured Ira men - can you imagine!. I know a family very well who’s son was taken from a local pub by family and in-laws (a test for their loyalty) and delivered for interrogation and finally assignation.

can you start to imagine the repercussions for the republican movement if the truth of this all came out? Do they take down memorials to some and put up memorials to others who they have been conditioned to hate as Lundy’s? Do they denounce the likes of MMcG for his British agent activities? Do they denounce their great idol for what happened at loughgall?

careful what you wish for and let’s put to bed this nonsense that it’s the Brits have to worry. Most of the Brits are dead or retired and living in England etc with no family ties to ni. There may be a hollow apology for what would come out and someone might be told their father was involved in stepping over the legal line in far off ni during peacekeeping duties. There is no emotional tie and their local community doesn’t care.

let’s put this fabrication to bed that it’s the Brits who are most concerned about the truth!

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120649210#Comment_120649210

This is just crazy. Is there anybody doesn’t believe that the ira has more desperately embarrassing skeletons in their cupboard than anyone else.

Nobody has said this. The IRA have their truth to tell as well as everyone else.

And the FACT is that the two greatests opponents of a truth process have been the British and Unionism and to a lesser degree via silence, the Irish Government. Even though they signed up to it like everyone else around the table. One of them The British Government is actively and legislatively trying to enforce forgetting.

Seth Brundle

Mod: Right, back on topic folks please!

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120649526#Comment_120649526

Given that the topic is an election that never actually happened, the thread does perhaps lend itself to a bit of rambling! 😉

political analyst

This is what Ian Paisley junior said about the prospect of power-sharing being resumed.

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/it-could-take-an-ice-age-before-northern-ireland-has-a-devolved-government-again-says-dup-mp-ian-paisley-4165283

Why are ordinary people in his constituency and the constituencies of other DUP MPs not putting pressure on them to put the DUP back into power-sharing at Stormont?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667153#Comment_120667153

Interesting analysis on Nolan this morning.

Nobody knows whether Ian is representing his own views or the DUPs official view.

retalivity

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667153#Comment_120667153

I see that Flegory is in danger of losing his seat, or if he retires completely then the DUP replacement has even less chance. Tide has started to turn, but wont impact Paisley and the Antrim heartlands yet.

Apropos of nothing, a yougov survery shows the brits would be happier to keep Gibraltar or the Falklands, instead of NI. Wonder why that may be?

https://www.thejournal.ie/british-people-more-upset-if-gibraltar-left-uk-than-northern-ireland-6083163-Jun2023/