Opting out of Smart Meter Program

Alkers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679928#Comment_119679928

Not really, the poster was alleging that the smart meters are not compatible with day and night tarrifs, which isn't true

Alkers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680131#Comment_119680131

Yes you're correct, I had understand the poster went from day/night meter to smart meter in the first instance

suilegorma

Does anyone know if you buy a house second hand and if previous owner had a smart plan if you can juts move back to a manual plan on changing the electricity account over? Thanks

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119677424#Comment_119677424

I'd rather pay 50 extra a month to not have to plan my usage...

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680223#Comment_119680223

Regardless of the why the effect is the same...

https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/not-so-smart-meters-how-some-new-smart-plans-have-customers-paying-more-not-less-for-energy-bills-42013780.html

Zamboni

Update: It was easy to opt out.

Call 1800 928 123 and they will do it for you.

Follow up with an email to esbnetworks@esb.ie and request written confirmation of the opt out.

Unlike your assumed opt-in, the nice ESB person stated that the opt-out is reversible at any point so if rates/tariffs etc change you can just get the smart meter.

Email from ESB Networks

I can confirm your MPRN is no longer included in our current meter replacement plan. ESB Networks will inform your electricity supply company of your preference.

Please be advised, if you wish to avail of smart services (time-of-use tariffs or the electrification of heat & transport) available from your energy supply company, or to take part in any future micro-generation scheme launched by the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, that you will require a smart meter.

Further, our replacement meter stock is now comprised of smart meters, so please be aware that if your current meter: develops a fault, or you wish to relocate it, or if for any other reason a new meter is required then a smart meter will be installed.

If you have further queries, or would like to be re-included in our plans for a free smart meter upgrade, please don’t hesitate to contact us.

slave1

Well again ESB Networks being bully boys

"our replacement meter stock is now comprised of smart meters, so please be aware that if your current meter: develops a fault, or you wish to relocate it, or if for any other reason a new meter is required then a smart meter will be installed"

In fact they are replacing Smart Meters with D/N meters and due to EM sensitivities Smart Meters cannot be installed in certain home settings so they have to have alternative meters available.

This is just typical Gov State Body (semantics) not giving a sh1t and railroading like the Water Meter fiasco, ESB ee's don't care because they get cheap leccy

Zamboni

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119677424#Comment_119677424

It's a shame you jumped to this conclusion.

Usually the posters in a forum like renewable energies have spent considerable time and research on the topic.

This discussion is purely an economic perspective on smart metres. It is disingenuous to relate it with the topics you mentioned.

jkforde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680247#Comment_119680247

if the 2nd hand house has a smart meter and you don't want it, then you have to ask (demand really) a swap by ESBN. and what do you mean by 'manual plan'? non-smart 24hr tariff plan with manual meter readings?

slave1

as if we need another reason...

EU agrees consumption cuts and levies on energy firms (rte.ie)

back to the days of internet throttling, ffs

Markus Antonius

Got a letter from TLI today. Rang ESB and they put me straight through to TLI who had no problem opting me out. They warned that if I change my mind, there may be a charge to have the smart meter installed.

Flinty997

Funny how every option is about charging you more.

daheff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119676834#Comment_119676834

Smart meters per-se are not evil. Its the actions & charging taken by the suppliers that will be.

For example, they are looking to designate 5pm-7pm as the highest tariff as thats when the highest usage of electricity is. Their idea is high cost will drive usage to a lower time. That may well be a good idea in theory, but if you think about what happens between 5 & 7 pm in your average home, all I can see it doing is adding cost to peoples bills.

Most people get home from work/school between 5 & 7. People need to use electricity to cook dinner, heat homes, put on the immersion for people (mainly kids) to have baths/showers before bed time. Granted people do other things like put on the washing machine/dryer at these times too as they are trying to get clothes washed/dried before they go to bed, rather than stay up late to finish it, or get up early the next morning to do it.

Yes people may push out things like car charging, but other than that what can people delay?

On top of this, if smart meters/different charging models were so great for Energy providers why are they so slow to offer plans that make a worthwhile saving for consumers to make the change?

From my view either the consumer saves money -which means the energy provider loses out, or the energy provider makes more money which means the consumer loses out. And I don't see energy providers making much effort to push new plans so it appears to me that they are happy with things as is.

daheff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119677379#Comment_119677379

Because people know that ultimately they'll be forced onto a smart tariff.

plus there is the wastage of the existing meters being replaced even though they have not passed their usable life. Are these being recycled at all or just thrown out? really we can't keep being so wasteful as a society

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704228#Comment_119704228

Almost all of that can be moved. Dryers, dishwasher, washing machines etc all have timers. Immersions can be timed to run at night.

Or, for next level, you can install some batteries, charge them up at night rate and use them during the day.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119684152#Comment_119684152

This happened me. We bought a house that had a smart meter. It was removed by ESBn within a few days.

daheff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704271#Comment_119704271

Do I want to run my immersion at night when I need it at about 6pm the next day to have kids shower? No- water wont be hot.

Dishwasher, absolutely can be run at night. agreed

Do I run my dryer at night- not its a fire hazard

Washing machine run at night? no - I don't want wet clothes sitting in it for hours. They start to smell again when you do that. Also means I need to get up earlier to hang up the clothes after washing. I'd rather I could do that in the evening when I'm up and about anyways. Also not all washing machines have timers either.

As for batteries - better for the energy suppliers to do this on an industrial scale & have knowledge on how to make the most efficiencies from them, rather than hundreds of thousands of households trying to do. The cost outlay for batteries is large and payback period isn't great. So is it really a solution for the average consumer?

ELM327

If you run the immersion at night it should be perfectly hot at 6pm the next day unless you have really poor insulation.

Running a dryer is not a fire hazard at night. I used to run my dryer at night the whole time. If it's such a fire hazard are you sitting watching it run with a fire extinguisher in your hand?

Wet clothes in a clean finished washing machine isnt a problem for a few hours. They don't smell.

Nowadays with my 8kWp of solar and 20kWh of storage I just run the devices when I want as they are all powered from my batteries anyway. But back before that I would usually be pulling 10-14kW for most of the night between car charging, heating water, washing clothes and dishes, and drying. I mean, it's either that or pay very expensive and about to get more expensive day and peak electric rates.

Batteries are not expensive. Even if you're not going to DIY, you can get 2kWh or more per 1k euro.

Flinty997

I'd say its makes more sense to run the dishwasher when its full, rather than just because its night time.

I'd agree I don't want dryer on at night, and damp (Clean) clothes smell if left.

Indeed, tumble dryers have accounted for 57% of all fires involving white goods in Wales over the last three years (there are on average 158 fires involving white goods in every year).

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704320#Comment_119704320

My dishwasher is generally full at night time anyway.

57 percent of 158 fires, in wales (ie not Ireland anyway). I reckon that's more likely down to bad wiring in the houses where those fires happened.

graememk

Caught a bit of a piece on radio one this morning re smart meters. And why nobody was using the smart plans. Did touch on how it gets very complicated very fast.

But

They were using electric Ireland as the example.. the night rate is 22c!!

One of the biggest things is that the people that have already load shifted are already on day night meters.

The people getting smart meters are on 24 hr tariffs. They don't really have any reason to change.

If they did a day night is currently cheaper.

ELM327

22c night rate is criminal! My DAY rate is 28c on a D/N meter and I think that's too high as it is.

DC999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704296#Comment_119704296

If we each do our part to reduce energy emissions (when the grid is cleaner), it's a minor inconvenience for us. But a help to all. And you'll save some money too hopefully. Can get smart plugs for under 10 quid each that turn a device without a timer into a timed one

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704487#Comment_119704487

What do you do that you do at the same time 365 days a year.

bullit_dodger

Yeah, D/N meters incentivize us to run stuff outside of "core hours". Back when they were introduced of course it was problematic to have multiple "spinning discs" in the meters, so they limited it to just two counters inside the old mechanical meters. A day meter and a night meter - with a clock that could be set/reset via the meter guy if needed.

Nowadays we have the smart meters and in theory (although they don't do it), you could take 1 minute or 5 minute chunks and slice/dice the billing that way. They've decided that 30 mins blocks are the way to go, and that's fine. No technical reason whatsoever why they couldn't move the DN billing on a smart meter, but it goes against the ethos of a smart meter that they don't have a "peak" usage. Make no mistake, the smart meters are SPECIFICALLY designed to help lower the peak usage. Estimates from Eirgrid based on historical evidence across europe where they have rolled out smart meters previously have shown that they lower the peak values on days by 4-5%.

People on DN have of course already moved most of their load to non-daytime, meaning non-peak time already. So we're way down the pecking order to move to a smart meter as to the grid, there is little benifit in us on smart as we've already done the work.

As for the comments about moving loads to night time such as the immersion. You could have it heat up at 8am and get to temperature before "day rate" kicks in at 9am. Then it will sit there (slowly loosing heat) until evening. My own tank loses about 1C every hr, so 10 hrs later when the kids want to have a shower, it will still be 50C or so......or at most would require only a 5 minute boost to get back up to temp.

Flinty997

If you want to save energy you need use it on demand like an electric shower. Not heat water on a timer only to cool it for hours on the chance you might use it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704250#Comment_119704250

"People know" lots of things - or think that they do! If your claim that "ultimately they'll be forced onto a smart tariff" is correct, then so too will the people who haven't got a smart meter! (This can be done very simply by suppliers increasing the unit charges for dumb meters to a point where they match -or exceed - the smart rates. I suspect that's what is going to happen in a couple of years' time when the national smart meter installation programme is completed.)

As for your second point, given that the decision to introduce Smart meters was taken in 2017 (by the CER following a comprehensive cost-benefit analysis), there's not really much point in complaining about it now!

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704881#Comment_119704881

Point remains. You are heating the whole tank regardless if you use all of it, or any of it.

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704716#Comment_119704716

Very true, although saving energy doesn't always equate to saving money (as odd as that sounds)

You could heat the tank up from 30C->60C on night rate at 8am, then it will cool before you use it requiring additional energy to be expended to get it back up to temp, however that 2nd boost might only be a small fraction (cost wise) as to the initial bulk of the heating which was done at cheap rate.

Me? Personally I've a Triton T90 electric shower which heats water as it's needed - I'm just outline options to people who may not have considered ways in saving a few quid.

Flinty997

But the point of Smart Meters is energy efficiency.

They are not trying to make us save money with as we have seen.

Smart meters that encourage us to be wasteful with energy due to the tariffs. How ironic is that.

DC999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704625#Comment_119704625

Dishwasher and washing machine use about 2.5+kWh between them (more if a hotter cycle as heating water is the dear part). Or €365 quid a year at 40c a unit. So that's easy to move to a cheaper rate. We run both once a day as they are full. So I have them set to run at a certain time. Dishwasher ends at the time we're up so it's heating the kitchen instead of needing a rad on (not cold enough yet for that). Dryer is another that could easily move to off peak - but we rarely use that as chews power. Charge EV if you have it overnight.

Smart plug timer works on my dishwasher & washing machine but not dryer (loses it's setting and won't start).

I'd agree with your point that 'on demand' is the best at times. We use the electric shower (not hot water tank) and use it when we need it. Don't get up early to get a cheaper night rate. If using the immersion at night, you'll lose some heat for sure you've paid for if it's not well insulated. But smart meter tariffs are something like 1/3 the price at night compared to the peak time - I don't have that tariff but think it's around that. So still cheaper to heat the immersion before the day rate starts and lose a small bit of heat.