NI Census 2021

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119652941#Comment_119652941

You leading the way on the campaign against reunification?

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119652121#Comment_119652121

Agreements are set in stone, until they're not? That's some cracking analysis.

Do tell, who's leading the campaign to rip up the GFA and implement a other agreement of the type which you allude to?

There's no other game in town. Until there is, there's literally no point in discussing it.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119652506#Comment_119652506

Perhaps you do not understand the point - after all it is a long time since the half-crown was demonetised - 1972. The half-crown was one eighth of a pound - or two shillings and six pence in old money - or 12.5 pence (or new pence in the terms of the time).

Basically, loyalty is stronger in economic terms than flag waving - you cannot eat flags.

People think of their wallets more than the labels. Most people quote the NHS as a reason to remain a part of the UK, but overlook the fact that the NHS is in deep trouble with inadequate funding, staffing, and resources - not just in NI but throughout the UK. The current Tory Gov are hell bent of privatising it and using it to enrich their chums.

On the other hand, Ireland is pursuing a move to Slaintecare which should be a move towards replicating the benefits of the NHS. Unfortunately, the vested interests in the medical profession are working hard to keep their own interests well provided for - mainly the private medical system that keeps the well reimbursed for their troubles.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653647#Comment_119653647

Are you actually for real? For starters it's your United Northern Ireland guff that I was referring to wrt "continued partition isn't a solution to partition".

Secondly, the trope of 'loyalists being more loyal to the half-crown than the crown' is so well worn, that I'd be shocked if anyone on this thread didn't quite grasp the point you're making, never mind not understand what it means, again, on yet another thread.

So whatever about the loyalism's loyalty to economic realities, that you continuously peddle the idea that a UI can't be on the table until the north sorts itself out is quite frankly just rubbish.

So, as I say, continued partition isn't a solution to partition.

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119652649#Comment_119652649

You're not comparing the correct numbers. In a United Ireland, the 7 million have the genuine support of 447 million.

Staying with the UK, your 2 million have the imagined support of 60 million, who sold you down the river during the Brexit negotiations.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653373#Comment_119653373

I'm not suggesting a border poll anytime soon.

You would have to wait till 2031 and confirm the trend.

And if the trend remains by 2031 those of "Irish only" will outnumber the "British only" and the same goes for "Irish and Northern Irish only" outnumbering "British and Northern Irish only"

Combine this with what we have started to see in elections, non-unionists outnumbering unionists in general elections, unionists parties no longer being the largest in Stormont.

All of that in 10 years time leads to the serious conversation about a border poll.

That's the trend, that's what happening, that's the reality for unionists.

kazamo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653633#Comment_119653633

There is no game in town atm, it is business as usual until the next census.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653749#Comment_119653749

The GFA exists. So indeed that's what we're playing. Well, I mean, we try to play except belligerent Unionists keep taking their ball home in a huff.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653700#Comment_119653700

I am very much in favour of a UI, and would think it would be beneficial to all factions.

However, if the most violent can not live with their neighbours, will they be happy in a UI? Will they try to start to visit their violence on the rest of Ireland? Just look at the senseless attitude to the NI Protocol. It is of special benefit to NI, but is being put forward as a dishonest problem invented to stir up violence, or at least the threat of it. There needs to be a buy in to the benefits that will accrue to NI, resulting from UI, from all sections of political opinion in NI.

Now that is a big ask, but a move towards it is essential. The GFA was opposed by the DUP, but now they are working it - sort of. Hopefully, those opposed to a UI will agree to it once they are seen to be a small minority who cannot see the benefits.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653625#Comment_119653625

I'm gently telling you that nationalists up north have a wee problem in their heads in that they automatically assume that people down south actually want them as part of an all island administration. Perhaps we aspire to it in a woolly way, in the same way we all aspire to the cupla focal but of course wouldn't dream of having it as a main language in anything other than a green tinted delusional way.

So it is with the wee north, maybe but yous better get used to the idea that of swinging cuts across all your public service employment. That's really how the NI troubles were ended, the Brits poured money into the nationalist middle classes and created all manner of public service jobs. We ain't funding that.

kazamo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653782#Comment_119653782

No one is doubting the existence of the GFA. It outlines two options, with time we may need a third. One hundred years of British rule hasn’t worked, but A UI is the only alternative ?. Neither community is going anywhere so the one size fits all approach with either total British control or Total Irish control may not be the solution.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653997#Comment_119653997

The people of the island would be in 'control'.

It's a simple concept really.

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653749#Comment_119653749

I tend to agree that we won't see anything before the next census but I actually agree with Francie that the wheels should be set in motion at some level and I would suggest that a citizens' assembly on unification should at least be on the horizon so we can have an honest and open debate about what it means to us. Participants from Northern Ireland, of all traditions and none would be more than welcome if they chose to attend. It would be much more useful if they did. What we absolutely want to avoid is a Brexit style "pig in a poke" vote. The exact path of unity and the end state should be laid out in advance. It could be that we constitute the original 4 provinces (with slight amendments where boundaries make no sense) as regional political assemblies and NI would form part of Ulster on a political level. There's an opportunity for greater regional democracy in the whole of Ireland that should form the basis of a holistic approach to unity. IMO it would be a massive wasted opportunity to just subsume NI into the unitary state without considering alternatives that could benefit the whole island.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653729#Comment_119653729

This is the crux of it. We have 10 years ahead of us now to plan for a border poll because it is almost certain to happen in the early 2030s. We need to learn the lessons of Brexit big time in that regard. Anti EU sentiment was trending upwards in the UK for a long period of time and the UK government called a somewhat snap referendum with little foresight and planning of how to make exiting the EU work. Which has lead to the current sh1thow and has also indirectly lead to this UI border poll discussion being hastened. The likelihood of a SF lead government North and South in the next Dail term or the one after that also means that the excuses are used up to delay discussing a border poll any further. It's going to happen in a 10-15 year timeframe in my opinion and it's time for us to engage with the possibilities of both potential results of such a poll.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654052#Comment_119654052

I agree fully, it amazes me to this day how many commentators on here will do all sorts of mental gymnastics to avoid the simple facts of democracy and how it would apply to a 50%+1 border poll. We already voted on that in the GFA referendum and it had huge cross border support. A United Ireland would be simple from a political voting perspective, we would elect a parliament similar to what's done now but on a 32 county basis. Every voter would be considered equal and have 1 vote. The absolute simplest form of a democratic republic - all citizens equal in the eyes of the state. We've been doing it in the 26 counties for 100 years with fairly high levels of success.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653784#Comment_119653784

Again you're justifying unionist and loyalist intransigence and belligerence.

The days of the loyalist veto are gone we can't continue to be held to ransom by them. This is not an "all sides" issue.

The DUP need to get their fingers out or we need another election soon so that they can be punished for their crap. That's the solution here. There needs to be consequences for their actions.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653925#Comment_119653925

Gently telling me?

I'll be sure to take your Partitionist patronising onboard with all the vigour it deserves.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653997#Comment_119653997

If you think we need another solution by all means off you go and start that campaign. But as it stands, we have a solution that works for everyone except Partitionists and belligerent Unionists.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654059#Comment_119654059

This is thing, every time we try to engage with Unionism they shout and scream and stamp their feet and run away. Then a few weeks pass and we get told that we don't understand their pov and that no one has engaged with them.

Watch this play out in a few weeks after the Ireland's Future conference.

What's so annoying about it is that it's so predictable that you'd think our politicians would have copped on by now.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654230#Comment_119654230

We need to stop saying "we need to learn the lessons of the Brexit referendum".

Have you seen how we conduct referenda here? That's the process that will be followed. You'd swear we were inexperienced at this.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654259#Comment_119654259

Bang on.

Any thoughts of changing the State's unitary nature or the voting system is just madness.

On the unitary aspect, I would definitely be open to changing things as the State is too centralised, but not before reunification. Baby steps first.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654417#Comment_119654417

I agree with you. What worries me is our political leaders are bluffing and stalling about engaging meaningfully on the potential results of a border poll and that is worrying. It's incumbent on us to make an UI a success if it is voted for. That will involve very diligent planning and a public realisation that a UI may happen and is likely to happen in the medium term. Right now I don't see that with our current government.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654408#Comment_119654408

Here's a helpful hint. Try to make friends with your unionist fellow citizens. Find things your community can agree on and share in common... instead of trying to stick your fingers in their faces at every possible opportunity. That's if you are seriously interested in promoting a UI project.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654417#Comment_119654417

"we" won't be conducting the poll in NI.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654455#Comment_119654455

What rubbish. My work puts me in contact every day with people from both communities in the North. We have far more in common that we do different. An UI is no threat to any genuine unionist / Ulster protestant who believes in equality and democracy. None. In a UI any person from the 6 counties would be able to identify as British, as is currently their right. It is highly likely that the British government will continue to confer upon them the right to a British passport. Any person of a British / Union identity will still be free to celebrate the 12th of July in anyway they deem fit once it's commensurate with the laws of the land. There are thousands of British people resident in the 26 counties for whom there is zero political discrimination relative to those of other identities. I can't fathom how people who have lived in Ireland for the past X years still don't understand our democratic republicanism and how it works and how it would continue to apply in the case of a UI. From a political standpoint all of us are equal, irrespective of creed, colour and identity. Unionists would have equal rights to everyone the island or Ireland in the event of a UI, no more, no less. What's there to fear?

Podge_irl

An UI is no threat to any genuine unionist / Ulster protestant who believes in equality and democracy. None.

Of course there is. Their Union with GB will be destroyed. You could make an equal argument to suggest that Nationalists in the north shut up and accept the status quo. Its a weird argument.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654455#Comment_119654455

Good God.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654530#Comment_119654530

Nationalists have accepted their commitments to the GFA.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654516#Comment_119654516

"We" will have a concurrent referendum. It is imperative that we conduct it to the same standard that we have become accustomed to.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654530#Comment_119654530

That is the single fear though - in no other way will they be threatened. Nothing will prevent unionists identifying as British, holding British passports, venerating the King, or any other such action. Nothing. Their is no threat other than the end of the political union with GB.

And yes they're is that equal argument for nationalists, hence a border poll. The question is binary, accept the status quo or accept a UI.

There is no way around this without upsetting a certain portion of NI. None. But we have this weird discourse where a position is put forward that Unionists should be spared being upset by the results of democratic votes. It has just happened in the recent NI assembly elections. The DUP no longer have a majority in Stormont and have refused to engage with democratic politics as a result. We can't keep giving political unionism a veto on equality.