Deep space 9 revisited

Bobtheman · 29-08-2022 11:01am #1

Im watching this again all the way through.

Firstly it's quality still shines through.

The characters are brilliantly designed and acted. The contrast with the blandness of Voyagers actors is quite clear .

My one beef is the sets which come across as quite tacky at times.

I suppose the idea was to keep idea this used to be a dark place. A cardassian slave mining facility but they made no real effort to upgrade it.

Also and this is a general criticism of all star trek shows - the fashion is appalling. It often seems designed by people from the 1970s on acid.

Rawr · 29-08-2022 11:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058260862/deep-space-9-revisited

I remember the DS9 sets to be a good bit off putting in the early days. I had been used to Federation Starships for years, and now I'm presented with crazy "Gear teeth" doors and weird Cardassian oval screens. But on reflection all of it made sense. It was supposed to be oppressive and alien, especially given the cold industrial nature of what it was designed to be.

The subtile idea that the Starfleet and the Bajorans managed to bring warmth and a sense of home to the place kind of adds to the theme of DS9 too.

Bobtheman · 29-08-2022 4:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119536523#Comment_119536523

Valid points. I think it was credible the first few seasons but all 7? They could could easily have refitted it to a new set gradually

Rawr · 30-08-2022 8:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119538298#Comment_119538298

Probably budget limits to what they could pull off. OPS alone was an ambitious set design for a Trek show, which up until this point had mostly had generic corridors and modular rooms. Also add in an internal 2-level street in the form of the Promenade and you're really pushing out the boat with set designers. It was a ballsy move too, since they could only easily use those sets for DS9 / Cardassian scenes. In the past, Enterprise sets were generic enough to be redressed to whatever they needed (How many times have we seen the Battle Bridge reused over the years?).

It's true though. Following the repairs to DS9 not a lot really changed. You got a couple more LCARS units and other Federation tech around the place over time, but that was mostly it. The real major change was the introduction of the Defiant sets which gave us occasional breaks from Cardassian design.

Bobtheman · 31-08-2022 9:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119540693#Comment_119540693

Very good post. It's a great series. I think it essentially carried the franchise for decades as voyager was so trite and Enterprise uneven.

I never agreed on the consensus on discovery (manure) until the last season which was like an extended version of the first trek film.

Im gonna keep ploughing away. Just saw an excellent episode battle lines with the dirty ex cop from breaking bad in it. Really good

Evade · 31-08-2022 10:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119540693#Comment_119540693

The battle bridge itself was a reused set, like a lot of TNG sets.

It's possible DS9 couldn't be retrofitted easily. A lot of the technology was incompatible with Federation technology and couldn't be easily reproduced either. The upgrades they did do, like the Way of the Warrior weapons upgrades, seemed to be Cardassian and you could infer they were other left behinds moved from Bajor.

Rawr · 31-08-2022 10:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119546728#Comment_119546728

Recently rewatching some Season 1 now, and O'Brien mentions that the Cardassians pulled out all of the weapons systems when they withdrew. Could be that all of the weapons pods were empty until the Way of the Warrior upgrades. Anything Starfleet put in there would have to fit Cardassian tech.

Likely as you said, reused tech recycled from Bajor, or maybe even captured Cardassian weapons parts from the earlier Federation - Cardassian War that had been refurbished and upgraded for DS9.

SouthWesterly · 31-08-2022 11:01am

The incidental music in season 1 was grating

Evade · 31-08-2022 2:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119546768#Comment_119546768

Leading to Kira's great bluff of firing the last six torpedoes in the first volley. Another way to show she's not like a Starfleet officer.

EDIT: Or, this just occured to me, stuff from redrawing the border in the DMZ.

Bobtheman · 03-09-2022 3:58pm

I like the way it gives a positive enough view of Religion and religious practices. It does not depict religion as superstitious. Yes - I know the prophets are worm hole aliens but you could argue that God is a superior alien of sorts if you believe.

Evade · 03-09-2022 4:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119565414#Comment_119565414

Until the D'Jarra are reintroduced and everyone just kind of goes with it.

santana75 · 05-09-2022 7:52pm

Its funny because I had been catching random episodes from season 4 & 5 recently on the sci-fi channel and I had the same thoughts, it holds up magnificently.

Vicxas · 05-09-2022 7:59pm

I’m some ways I prefer DS9 to TNG. I think especially during the Dominion war you could see that Statfleet was just as dirty as everyone else when push came to shove.

Very much against what Roddenberry would have wanted.

FunLover18 · 05-09-2022 8:14pm

I watched this for the first time recently and while good it's not my favourite Trek show. I find the complaint of tackiness to be a bit odd, I think all the 90s shows share that sense of cheapness and that's not a criticism. There's a certain charm to it I find and the the am-dram acting you get sometimes only adds to it imo. It's one of the reasons I struggle with newer Strek because they just don't look or feel like they are in the same universe. Lower Decks probably comes closest because the animation allows them to use the same set designs and uniforms etc but Discovery and Picard have to "upgrade". Picard especially is just completely jarring to watch.

Back to DS9 I enjoyed it but man the last few seasons with the Odo/Kira romance was a slog. Probably one of the worst onscreen couples, just no chemistry at all.

TheIrishGrover · 06-09-2022 3:39pm

I was never really gone on the whole Odo/Kira thing either but in comparison to Seven and Raffi on Picard, they practically fizzled. You wanna talk about zero chemistry? Boy. Worf/Dax was great as was Sisko/Yates, Culpet and Stamets is very good too (Just don't mention the creepy "adoption")

eadrom · 06-09-2022 4:24pm

Sisko/Yates was really great. As was Ben and Jake Sisko's relationship. One of those things that does get some credit from time to time, but probably still not as much as it deserves.

Avery Brooks is the GOAT.

TheIrishGrover · 06-09-2022 4:33pm

Yeah, I forgot about the Siskos. That was great. But then Jake was a great character. Not yer "Star Trek Kid". Just a kid and man

mewso · 06-09-2022 4:39pm

In terms of set design as much as I love DS9 I think Babylon 5 was superior. It managed to make a space station that felt like a real lived in place. This was presumably on a lower budget. It's a minor criticism for DS9 but valid I think. I loved how big Babylon 5 felt with dingy bars in far off corners of the place, proper airport type arrivals area and so on.

06-09-2022 4:46pm

The Ferengi gained their first credibility in DS 9.

From being unscrupulous scavengers in TNG series, to the bartenders son joining Starfleet academy as a cadet in DS9.

I hope we meet the ferengi again in future Star Trek franchises.

FunLover18 · 06-09-2022 5:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119580010#Comment_119580010

I haven't watched Picard S2 or the latest Discovery. I did enjoy Dax and Worf however Dax and Julian came out of nowhere for me. I think the best relationship in the show was Julian and Miles 😂

JayRoc · 07-09-2022 8:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119565414#Comment_119565414

The distinction between Wormhole Aliens and Prophets was subjective, really.

You could argue that the Bajoran religion was unique because their gods actually existed.

TOS was always my favourite but DS9 is tied with TNG as a close second. I think it was the first show I was able to follow from the start as it was being broadcast.

Flinty997 · 07-09-2022 8:45am

I only ever dipped in and out of trek when originally screened.

Recently After we finished the Expanse. One of the kids talked me into rewatching trek. So re watched DS9, then Voyager, almost finished TNG.

Ds9 stand out as far better written with exception of towards the end here the writers lost their minds with Dukat character and all that religion crap.

Evade · 07-09-2022 9:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119582725#Comment_119582725

I don't think it's all that unique in-universe, the god-alien from Justice and the people of Brax calling Q the god of lies immediately spring to mind.

TheIrishGrover · 07-09-2022 9:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119582777#Comment_119582777

Yeah, could have done without a lot of the dark Prophets (Can't remember their name. It's been years since I rewatched). The biggest problem I had with that storyline was the descent of Dukat. Up until then he was a brilliantly interesting character. Not eeeeeeevil. Just doing what he thought was right for his people. The relationship between him and his daughter was also well portrayed. I know, his mind was fractured by the end but it was sad to see such a complex and interesting antagonist go that way.

There wasn't such a regular antagonist before or since, which is a bit telling, regarding Trek's reluctance to try something new. The closest one came to a regular baddie apart from Dukat was The Borg Queen in Voyager. But she was such a moustache-twirling eeeeevil caricature, and they had de-fanged The Borg so much that they were pretty pathetic by the end.

Disco had baddie of the season but they were so forgettable: Season 1 was Jason Isaacs/Eeeevil Michelle Yeoh. Isaacs started as a morally-interesting Federation officer but then went full-camp along with Eeeeevil Yeoh once thesilly Mirror Universe pops up. Then you had, yhat? Ammmm.... Evil AI or something? Can't remember. Then idiotic eeeeevil Orion and Warp-destroying crying alien. Then not-at-all-Interstellar worm-hole and its not-at-all-Arrival aliens.

Enterprise had brief period of semi-interesting baddies for one season then straight back to the oldest cliche in the book: Space Nazis.

Picard had... I don't know....at all!

Strange New Worlds? Too early to tell but, given the decision to focus on a (Largely) episodic nature, we probably won't get a baddie with such focus.

Flinty997 · 07-09-2022 10:53am

Dukat was great until the last season.

Anyone remember the "crack" squad of Ferengi Quark assembled to rescue Moogie. That was awesome.

Ethereal Cereal · 07-09-2022 11:33am

I know what you mean. I hated the sets, but I think I was meant to. They made the station particularly unappealing.

Voyager came along next with fantastic looking shiny sets. But if DS9 station looked like this, it would have taken away from the overarching story.

FunLover18 · 07-09-2022 11:51am

I didn't like Dukat's final arc either but tbh I think it had to go that way because up to that point they had become dangerously to redeeming the character which wouldn't have sat well with me.

Flinty997 · 07-09-2022 11:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119583600#Comment_119583600

True. But he could have just done bad things to redeem his bad self. The arc is completely off the wall.

I would guess Discovery took inspiration from Dukat final arc. Which why that show is a gibbering mess.

Flinty997 · 07-09-2022 11:58am

Having almost re-watched TNG, which I'm glad I did. So much cannon is in TNG. It started off quite crude and go so much better over time.

But its still patchy in terms of quality, you get a lot of filler episodes. Which is probably when I only dipped in and out the the first time. But it great to see all the references in Lower Decks to TNG. Lower Decks really pay homage to TNG etc.

Regarding DS9

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/5149/star-trek-deep-space-nine-dealt-with-the-complexities-of-war-in-an-uncanny-fashion

Rawr · 07-09-2022 12:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119582963#Comment_119582963

The anti-Profits were the Pah-Wraith, and did get pretty tedious. Similarly with Dukat's plot towards the end.

In some re-watches near the end of season 7 I'll even go so far as skip over the Kai Winn / Dukat bits to get to the far more interesting war segments. In comparison, Dumar seriously comes to his own as a far more interesting character, and his scenes with Weyone are a highlight of Season 7.

On watching Season 1 lately I can kind of see what they were trying to do with the Pah Wrath and Dukat. Much like with TNG finishing off with a story that ties with Encounter at Farpoint, I think they were trying to do the same for DS9. The show started with the Prophets & Dukat, and I guess they wanted to end the story with them. The ideas on their own were good, but I feel like they could have done something better with Dukat and Kai Winn's story. They kind of drag it out a bit over the run of the multi-part finale and they could have trimmed a good bit of the scenes where Dukat is just hanging around the Kai's palace. Would have been more interesting if Dukat had tried to use the opportunity to supplant Winn for control of Bajor, instead of a silly cartoon-villian vendetta with Sisco.

Flinty997 · 07-09-2022 12:07pm

Kai Winn storyline was atrocious.

I don't watch escapism SCFI to be be reminded of the petty, bullies you meet in real life.

Evade · 07-09-2022 1:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119583655#Comment_119583655

His realisation after Kira's "Yeah Damar. What kind of people?" is about as perfect as you could get.

There was an oversight with the last 10 episodes that meant a lot of extra Dukat/Winn stuff had to be added or they'd be missing for a five(?) episode chunk in the middle so if it feel like water treading filler, it is.

Evade · 07-09-2022 1:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119583683#Comment_119583683

But seeing them thrown off a cliff into a pit of fire is pretty good.

Flinty997 · 07-09-2022 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119584083#Comment_119584083

Only if the writers of that arc followed them... linear existence my foot.

Rawr · 07-09-2022 2:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119584080#Comment_119584080

Indeed it was. Damar's scenes are full of peak Trek moments.

From his hilarious suggestion to Weyone that "Maybe you could talk to Worf again! :P "
...to the build up of his resistance when he angrily refused to defer to the Breen "I. will. NOT!"
To his speeches as a resistance hero, inspiring the Cardassians to rise up against the Dominon, despite the odds.

It was all just gold.

I agree, that they did seem to have 5 episodes worth of good plot to fill 10, but I feel that they could have done a better job with that filling. I get that those Dukat scenes were probably cheap and easy since most of them happened on a single set, but it still feels like a very wasted opportunity. Specking of filler, I also tend to avoid that Section 31 episode they throw into the middle of that. I love O'Brien & Bashir, but it's tedious compared to the better episodes in that arc, and all you really learn is that Odo gets cured. Skipping it does not seem to take away the experience of the arc overall.

Flinty997 · 07-09-2022 2:26pm

Worf and Klingons in general are so much fun in the old series.

Complete buzz kill in Discovery.

eadrom · 07-09-2022 4:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119583683#Comment_119583683

As much as I appreciate DS9, that's my main issue with the whole thing really and in particular the last few seasons: if I wanted a gloomy no-hope drama there's plenty of other contemporary shows to choose from, sci-fi and otherwise, or for a war story I'd watch Band of Brothers or countless other shows or films.

If I want Star Trek... DS9 isn't always it. I'm here for the bright optimistic future, the dark underbelly of Starfleet and the harsh realities of life on the final frontier aren't what I look forward to. And calling it "more realistic" has always sounded like a lack of imagination to me.

It's a great show anyway because Star Trek is a place and there's room for these types of stories in it. It's just maybe not great in the way that Star Trek can be great, for me.

Flinty997 · 07-09-2022 5:28pm

I would prefer the Ds9 to the classic TNG shows. But I take your point DS9 isn't really the same mindset? as the TOS, TNG, Voyager.

Bobtheman · 10-09-2022 3:42pm

I take the point about DS9 not being classic trek. More dark. However we had 7 years of the TNG so it was time for a change.

Where the franchise took a wrong turn was creating such boring characters on voyager. They never really gelled.

The Enterprise again failed to have decent characters but I can't fully judge as i didn't watch it all.

Im not as negative on discovery as others but it went off the rails last season.

Good to see strange new worlds getting the balance right.

Flinty997 · 10-09-2022 5:17pm

I think Voyager turned into Janeway saved the day way too much, too much about her. Which stopped most characters from delivering too far. It completely neutered Chakotay into mostly irrelevance.

roadmaster · 17-09-2022 3:42pm

I do dip in and out of star trek now and again. I watched the episode where sisko and Garak got the Romulans in to the War. It was a very good episode that showed a different side to starfleet

24-09-2022 1:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119600434#Comment_119600434

And the [hologram] Doctor.

Bobtheman · 24-09-2022 2:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119630939#Comment_119630939

Getting the balance right is hard to do. Quark and the klingons created humour on DS9 that was credible.

Neelix was beyond repair. Over did it and just accepted the goody goody star fleet. Quark was always

Bobtheman · 24-09-2022 2:40pm

Just heard Louise fletcher who played Bajoran religious leader has died. On deep space 9

She is also famous for playing nurse ratchet in one flew over the cuckoo's nest

She was 88

AMKC · 07-10-2022 4:11pm

I always think its a pity that the seige of DS9 aka Terok Nor did not last longer in the show. Its only lasts for 6 episodes I know a few months in the show maybe more but really it could and should have been for a whole season. What a great way it would have been to go from season 6 to 7 with the retaking back of DS9.