Tenants refusing to leave even though we are homeless..HELP

sportsfan90

You have my best wishes OP, horrible situation to be in.

I'm sure someone will tell me that this suggestion is a terrible one and fair enough it probably is...

You mentioned there is no lease, wasn't registered with the RTB etc. So could you just report them to the gardai for trespassing, and just deny that there was any agreement in place. That these people are simply trespassing/squatting in your house and you'd like them to leave.

I guess one thing that might come against you there is if there's evidence of rent being paid for the first few months if it was paid electronically.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119268037#Comment_119268037

Flinty the law in relation to rentals is now gone beyond ridiculous. Surely you can see that yourself. For f sake this scum in living in the OPs home rent free while the OP is homeless. The crazy thing is the law supports this scummy behaviour. How can you support this?

Landlords are selling up or leaving houses vacant because of this. Something needs to be done to give landlords common sense rights aswell. If this continues the rental market in Ireland will decrease and decrease and housing problems will only worsen.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119268356#Comment_119268356

What legally is a "temporary home" ? and You can't give away your rights as a tenant.

The OP rented out the property. That makes them a LL. From that point its a business, and you have to do things by the book. A tenant who misses rent, isn't a "squatter". We've no idea of the OP gave legal notice or not. You've no idea if the OP did things legally. Which is why people are telling them to go get legal advice. Because they don't know what they are doing.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119268333#Comment_119268333

Assume its true. You can't give away your tenant rights under "friendship". What the OP needs to do, is get advice and do it properly. You can't instantly evict a tenant, you have to follow the process.

This is why places stay empty. Its too much hassle to rent them. The easy money from renting, isn't so easy when it goes wrong.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119268125#Comment_119268125

Exactly this.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119268379#Comment_119268379

The OP moved away for a year.

You don't think the Garda might have problem with someone trying to trick them into thinking their tenants are trespasser's? Really?

LJ12345

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119268864#Comment_119268864

We know they haven’t paid rent for atleast 2 months, that’s a decision that has been consciously made and one which will put the owners in an even worse situation. Remember those without any assets I.e. these tenants are able to seek housing assistance from the state. The owners will be granted very little if any assistance towards housing as they have a home, yet they are prevented from accessing it. I’m certain had they been renting the property to anyone who wasn’t trusted they would have had their i’s dotted and t’s crossed and a deposit taken. This was never a normal tenancy and if they’ve retained any rooms for their own belongings which I sincerely hope they have that they contact threshold and ask advise.

Some dose OP

landlord asked me if he knew anybody looking for a place he had available.

Local auctioneers has a list of people that are waiting to be housed and basically most of them are like the people you've let in.

They Had houses, HAP, Council houses etc down through the years and never bothered there ass to pay rent and now it's everybody else's problem. Auctioneer couldn't recommend any of them to him.

Going the legal route sounds like a nightmare in this country, I'd start getting creative.

raclle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119268878#Comment_119268878

You can't give away your tenant rights under "friendship".

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119268956#Comment_119268956

This was never a normal tenancy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119268125#Comment_119268125

Since this is such an unusual situation the OP has no option but go the legal route. Would love to hear the outcome of this. Best of luck OP

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269075#Comment_119269075

You're not getting it. You meant to do things the legal way, EVERY time. This is why they made a tenancy the default, regardless if registered. Because too many LL do what the OP did and try circumvent the law and the RTB. Which is why there is no such thing as abnormal tenancy. The other side to this if you are a LL who follows the rules, you are getting screwed by LLs who don't follow the rules. I would say its not that uncommon either. I've read a few threads on boards with a similar story.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119268956#Comment_119268956

AFAIK all tenancies are "normal" tenancies unless its rent a room. The reason is to stop instant evictions, security of tenure. How many months did they pay rent before they stopped. Because thats the critical issue. No-one on this thread has brought that up. Tenants not paying their last month or two rent is very common. Using the deposit (if there is one), or leaving repairs and cleaning, or unpaid rent far in excessive of the tiny deposit.

This is why LL are leaving the market, and why people leave properties vacant rather then renting. Its why people won't rent holiday homes. Its why AirBNB is has new rules around short and long term rental. Its why they want to bring in endless tenancies and such. Its why fair deal homes sit empty.

raclle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269197#Comment_119269197

I think you're misinterpreting me. I'm going on the basis of what the OP done at the time. I can only assume they went for a more "simplistic" approach and got burned

LJ12345

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269283#Comment_119269283

I understand well the complexities of the market and the reasons why landlords are leaving and if the state wants to improve the market they need to act in a fair and balanced way. The OP’s situation is certainly not fair and balanced and the state is to blame entirely for this situation from all angles.

It also doesn’t matter how many months a tenant has paid rent, once they have the keys and god forbid a 1 year fixed term contract, the payment can end right there and then with legal proceedings required and all that it entails. If it’s a 6 month initial phase contract there is slightly more hope for the LL if they act quickly.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269289#Comment_119269289

I know what you meant.

The OP actions might have been in good faith. But its exactly what a bad LL does. They are caught in the rules intended for catch bad LLs who avoid tax and tenant rights. They either didn't know the rules or deliberately avoided them. It doesn't really matter which. The end result is the same.

As for the friends/tenants. The might not have intended to break the arrangement until they realised they were going to be made homeless. I assume if they used to be friends they used to get on. But I wouldn't get into business with friends and family or loan them money. Because this stuff always happens. I assume they only recently stopped paying rent based on the OPs comments.

The OP needs to follow the rules to get out of this. Because its not following the rules that got them into it.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269340#Comment_119269340

I'm not sure you do. They've closed any loophole with fixed term leases.

https://www.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/ending-a-fixed-term-tenancy/what-is-a-fixed-term-tenancy-what-is-a-part-4-tenancy

The OP was away for a year. That ship has sailed.

The Govt has effectively closed the door on any irregular rentals. You might call that unfair. But its not from a security of tenure point of view. You don't rent a place you might want back in a hurry. LLs wanting places back for their own family was completely abused. Hence why there's very specific rules about it and notice periods.

raclle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269197#Comment_119269197

I would say its not that uncommon either. I've read a few threads on boards with a similar story.

What were the outcomes of these, if you don't mind me asking?

LJ12345

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269429#Comment_119269429

I think we are both in the main saying the same things. It’s a complete sh*tsh*w!

The govt haven’t closed all loopholes though there are still reasons to terminate tenancies, it says such in the link you sent.

Note: I never referred to the OP being abroad and leasing for any specific length of time, I was referring to ‘a tenant’ not the OP’s tenant.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269515#Comment_119269515

You can terminate tenancies with a valid reason. But it requires a "valid notice of termination, which is fully in compliance with the Residential Tenancies Act 2004."

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/tenants_rights_and_obligations.html 
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html#la1b6d

This is why the OP needs to get advice on how to do it properly. Do it wrong and it resets.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119268379#Comment_119268379

This suggestion is a terrible one.

"Garda, there's a family squatting and trespassing in my house, they haven't paid any rent in two months!"

Garda: "And what do you want me to do about it?"

"But they're trespassing! That's illegal!"

Garda: "Did they break in? Are you alleging breaking and entering?"

"No, they were our tenants."

Garda: "Then that's a civil matter. Get yourself a solicitor. Get a court order."

mrslancaster

Whatever about renting out a second property, anyone who rents out their home while they work abroad or go travelling is crazy with the way the rental market is.

Maybe the OP never rented before or didn't realise how much renting has changed in the past few years, it's been difficult enough for people who are actively involved in the sector due to the constant changes.

The days of handing over an asset worth more than a quarter of a million based on a handshake or gentleman's agreement is a thing of the past.

Girl Geraldine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119268125#Comment_119268125

It doesn't work out expensive if you just refuse to pay out on a judgement and give everyone the complete and utter run around, the same as the tenant is doing in the house right now.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119268379#Comment_119268379

The o/p could end up charged with wasting garda time if they go to the guards telling lies. In any event the guards only deal with criminal trespass and would most likely tell the o/p it is civil and they would not6 get involved.

As the o/p has not posted in several days, I must assume this thread is a wind-up.

Ginger83

Would I be correct saying that as the owner was living abroad the tenant had an obligation to withhold 20% of the rent for tax purposes? Therefore the owner has no tax liability if they register with Rtb however the tenant now has a tax bill due.

Could this be used as leverage to get their property back? I don't think it would be illegal to mention their tax obligations.

daithi7

Op,

This is a lousy situation to be in

Go the legal route, but also inform the neighbours & your mutual contacts the facts.... it may help expedite matters.

On a more generalised note, this just shows what a horlicks our politicians have made of letting & property owner rights in this country.

Surely it should be a 2 way agreement, so renters give theirs prsi numbers, and if they're found to not pay rent in arrears by the rtb, they are listed on a database for would be landlords to reference. This would cut out blatant abuse of the system by some renters imho. Also where there's a dispute, rents that aren't paid to the landlord should be paid in escrow to the rtb or whoever while the tenant is in situ, and if that's not done, tenants should be out in 90 days or less imho.

Even things like uneven notice periods, are patently one sided, and stupid imho. This populist legislative stupidity is reducing supply in the marketplace at a peak time, and making a crisis even acute by making things riskier & harder for small landlords, the rental market and the greater good, when they should actually be trying to get every property rented & lived in. Bad politics and lousy legislation & ethos imho.

The OP's case highlights just one aspect of this ridiculousness. Good luck OP.

dennis72

Sorry for your situation I thought I would have the same problem fortunately mine is almost resolved

People who are abroad and own a property that let are fair game here if they want or have to return

My worry is the next step of blanket ban on all terminations did it for covid could do to prevent LLs getting out as I am now.

The lack supply is the one sided regulations and extra risk it brings

Short 1 year letting should be allowed

bennyineire

If you don't have an emotional attachment to the house put it up for sale, its a sellers market out there so should be a quick sell

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119271103#Comment_119271103

it's their house they want to move back in.

machiavellianme

Plus, how is the OP going to sell a house in an incomplete state that they have no access to? Who would buy it?

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119271103#Comment_119271103

The problems here would be tenants refusing viewings and many banks not willing to lend without vacant possession

Girl Geraldine

I have a house and i am due to move away shortly for a year working in another county on secondment. I will be leaving the house idle for the year, maybe do a few air bnb lets to holiday makers at a push.

Absolutely, not and never will be renting the house. Too dodgy.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119271810#Comment_119271810

It would be fine 99/100 times. But that 1 time...

Masala

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119271810#Comment_119271810

and get a relative (parent / sibling) to check it a few times a week. Leave a night light on in various rooms.... invest in some of those lights controlled by your phone !!

And put a car in the drive.......

An Ri rua

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119258826#Comment_119258826

Every landlord owns their house. Stop posting drivel.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119271810#Comment_119271810

Good call. (Scum are all around - as this thread illustrates).

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119272619#Comment_119272619

And a chainlink fence. With razorwire on top. Possibly a machinegun nest.

redarmyblues

Lots of talk about the RTB who it seems have left the lights on but left the building as their website has ceased to process tenancy registrations, the webchat is not manned, the phones are not answered and emails are not replied to.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119288910#Comment_119288910

I having trouble with a tenant who insists I have not registered them but it is actually the RTB that aren't keeping things up to date. It took 4 months to pay them and they sent me a letter demanding payment after I did.

TheCrow1900

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119292079#Comment_119292079

The RTB is no longer fit for purpose. It's too easy for tenants to abuse the process without any come back. If a tenant stops paying rent the landlord has to send them and the RTB a formal 28 day notice about the arrears. Most landlords will not do that straight away as tenant will promise rent will be there next week etc.

If they fail to engage then it's a 28 day termination notice. So now we are probably into three months without rent. When you look at the RTB site you see wording like it's prudent to give extra notice.

The tenant can still appeal on a technicality even if everything is in order and this will further lengthen the termination process. Now a landlord is probably into the 4 or 5th month without rent.

Then you have the court appeal process with free legal aid with Threshold helping.

So a LL will definitely be with out rent for 6+ months and probably a year. This is aside from potential damage to the property when it's is repossessed.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119258172#Comment_119258172

Pretty sure that won't work with the gardai using them as leverage

mrsinfo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119292403#Comment_119292403

garda wont get involved as it is civil matter

mrsinfo

The RTB website ..... under Disclaimer says following:

All information provided on this Website is for information purposes only and does not constitute or comprise legal advice on any matter including, without limitation, the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 (as amended) (“RTA”). 

so everyone taking the web site as gospel is a fool .... use a solicitor!

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119295452#Comment_119295452

You'll find exactly the same kind of disclaimer on every NGO and government website.

mcsean2163

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119295452#Comment_119295452

Hope you manage to get your home back.

I was in a bad financial situation once where my employer was going bust but kept insisting they would pay my wages back. Stupidly, I kept working in good faith and the unpaid wages became quite substantial. I went through the work relations commission and six years later still have received not a penny.

My former employer has a nice Mercedes... apartment abroad etc. Ireland!

For me, it's very hard to not get angry when your back is against the wall due to injustice, but maybe keeping a cool head and sitting down with your husband is the best move. I'd guess your husband is very unhappy with the situation... maybe take a deep breath and try and talk through situations with a little emotion as possible together.

Good luck!

Thinkingaboutit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267838#Comment_119267838

You are patently a troll posing such a nonsense question and you again mis-use the term rent-seeking. It means moving around wealth not creating it. The example with the toilet is strange and makes no sense. If someone buys it and even works on it themselves, the materials used creates wealth. A charity boss or NGO or a certain political party might be rent seeking (although laundered diesel breaks engines and means more work for the motor trade), and their tax free landlordism is far more than their many properties referenced in another hypocrite's speech, and an example could be given and multiplied if needed. 'Rent seeking' has little or nothing to do with renting of houses, except sharing the word 'rent' in common. Houses built are bought by owner occupiers, sometimes by landlords for renting out and all parties concerned will employ quantity surveyors, solicitors, increasingly local authorities, after giving employment to construction labourers, scaffolders, bricklayers, plasterers, plumbers. 'Assuming no loans?' Unlike a crew who get money from sources not available to those who work an honest living, any income free of borrowings or tax (fewer deductibles than other businesses) is after years of work.

How are the great many lower to middling income new households to be housed? The state constructs a fraction (roughly one third) of the local authority houses built in the alleged bad old days. And was a time when the country had far fewer and was not intent on housing half of Nigeria or Brazil or taking 10 times as many Ukrainians as the UK. Recent governments got rid of bed sits, which were very imperfect but it did provide a home to many. The Duke of Westminster (Grosvenor Estates), German insurers and various property funds operating here free of most taxes and with near impunity are concerned only with housing higher paid workers and seem to have the pick of sites in urban and suburban areas. If you think a certain crew of Nordie hypocrites will clamp on a big potential source of donations, ie the REITs, I've a bridge to sell you. Taxing the rich for that will not mean Larry Goodman or other well connected people funding a life of idleness for a type who play PS5 24/7, or who hang around polling stations intimidating voters. It'll just mean the 40% rate for the higher tax band will either increase as a percentage to 57% again, or the bands will be widened along with likelier other made up charges or deductions will make more misery for those who do honest work and pay tax.

At least do one thing and stop mis-using the word rent seeking. You are not using it correctly. There are many online resources that explain the correct use of the term.

As to OP, if properly described, people should look after their own business properly. Paperwork including leases have to done correctly, and that isn't hard, what with downloadable Irish templates which can be edited as needed.

Even pre-COVID, the RTB site was unstable as anything. One mistake, pages of work are lost. The reason there, and with other public and civil service websites can be surmise. The RTB make live harder for those who follow the rules. Honestly they should put it out to tender or all its senior managers need reassignment.

The usual.

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119260516#Comment_119260516

Lol display they are reasonable by taken the law in their own hands. Be reasonable and stop offering **** advice.

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262270#Comment_119262270

Great idea if you were renting to a 2 year old.

mrsinfo

Guys im at my wits end now, these people in my house are taking the pi"" out of me, i actually have no where to stay, my weekly money is gone in 3 days and my kids are due back to school( which i am no where near because of these people)...... how do you get them out of my house, ive not received money since april from them and they ignore solicitor letters. i need someone to help!

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119445766#Comment_119445766

There are only two ways to get them out legally

1: Follow the RTB procedure properly. Have you started this

2: Pay them to leave. Which I don't think you have the means to do

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119271810#Comment_119271810

You'd want to check that your insurance will cover you. The insurance company will still gladly accept your money, but if someone happens, you might not be covered under a standard policy

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119445766#Comment_119445766

Im sorry to hear that your situation has not improved. All you realistically can do ( legally) is raise the issue with the RTB and keep in touch with your solicitor.

I think tenants overholding and not paying rent should be viewed as criminals and have to face legal consequences for their behaviour. Its the only way to stop this happening. Instead what we have is a law completely on the tenants side whether they have behaved bad or good. Its madness. I can see why people leave houses empty.