Tenants refusing to leave even though we are homeless..HELP

rightmove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262294#Comment_119262294

Life ,ust be very straight forward for you so

whatchagonnado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262308#Comment_119262308

Look, if life got in the way of some plans and you are an accidental landlord and are stuck, I have sympathy. But that is the minority.

Anyone else having a whinge, like the holiday home owner only making 18k revenue a year.... NO.

rightmove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262324#Comment_119262324

what is your functionon here - to show how narrow minded you are in your thinking. ?

I am not a LL but was both a renter and and LL at the same time and spent most of my life as a renter but small LL are screwed over .. I know.

I am neither a rent nor a LL now but i see it from both sides and my sympathies lay with the LL's and I never thought when I was in flatlands I would have thought that

DubCount

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262150#Comment_119262150

Protection of tenants against substandard and unsafe accommodation is very welcome - and more should be done on this.

However, allowing a tenant stay in a property without paying rent, or staying long after their notice has expired is wrong, and its killing supply from small landlords. Every tenant paying eye-watering rent, and every want-to-be tenant who cant find a place to rent, is paying a heavy price for this nutty system. The "what about the tenant" mentality when dealing with non-paying and overholding tenants is making it harder and more expensive for anyone to secure a rental.

Its no OK that our laws leave someone like OP homeless and in financial difficulty while the "tenant" squats in his property with the support of the Irish State for months or even years.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262423#Comment_119262423

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. No way someone refusing to pay rent should get away with it for years. And right now, they do, and yes, that's putting many landlords off staying in the business. There's another side to the coin, too, which you acknowledge, so fair play. In this particular case, we have one side of the story. Another interpretation of that?

"We were desperate for a place to stay and it seemed like win-win when our friends were moving to the UK for a time and asked if we'd rent their place. It wasn't up to scratch, with builders in doing work, but like I say, we were desperate. The rental market is gone mad! It was only supposed to be temporary, which we knew, and our friends were keeping it off the books, so we had no formal lease or tenancy agreement and nothing signed. Then out of the blue they sent us notice to quit. We've been looking around but literally can't find anything in a similar price range. There was no deposit (like I said, nothing signed) so we need to save for the deposit and first month's rent and moving expenses, so we've not paid the rent to allow us to do that. This is really stressing us out because we could end up homeless."

What might work here, apart from the full legal route, is informal mediation, if both sides were willing: https://mediationdublin.ie/

LJ12345

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263046#Comment_119263046

I only see a sense of entitlement, these people have made a conscious decision that they are more important than their friends, if they were given enough notice it’s up to them to find a resolution, withholding rent is unforgivable and a total stab in the back when they’ve been trusted with no deposit and goodwill to mind the property. The situation out there is dire, but these people need to direct blame towards the state and ask for help and not take ruthlessly from their ‘friends’ by abusing their good will.

airy fairy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263046#Comment_119263046

Mediate for what?

Property is owned by someone.

Owner wants it back.

Has given them notice to vacate.

Just because someone is renting a property doesn't give them the absolute right to stay in the property indefinitely. It is not the responsibility of the property owner to house someone.

Why on earth should mediation take place if the owner needs the property back? No mediation needed, get out.

Sense of entitlement much?

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119260592#Comment_119260592

That auctioneer story was a little funny.

If the tenant stops paying the rent, they would be ruined, but leaving the place empty with no rent does not equal ruin?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119261752#Comment_119261752

Remember we are hypothetically speaking here. First off all the caretaker agreement has not being registered with the RTB. It will take time for them to get involved.

However this is not a matter of an injunction. It's a matter of now evicting people from there family home.

Will a judge issue such an eviction notice. If he dose and in a case like this if the owner said I will not move out of the family home will a judge jail a father of children for contempt of court.

If this happens will he the jail the mother as well. If he just issues the eviction notice to the RTB is it the gardai or the county sheriff that has to evict them. Will a judge put Gardai in such a position. If it's the county Sheriff will he hire bailiffs to remove a family from the family home. Will bailiffs knowing the history of the case when they arrive and find 40-50 people present continue on such a route.

A judge will will go the contempt route before issuing an eviction notice to people in the family home even if he goes that far.

And this is all presuming that the squatters gave enough neck to go to the RTB.

There is an old saying possession is 9/10 th of the law.

Bass Reeves

OP is there enough room for a caravan in front of your house. You would be entitled to put such a caravan in front of your house. You could all then move into it. Even if it was a small caravan your husband could move into it rather than staying in a homeless shelter.

Have a huge sign on it telling the story of what happened.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263194#Comment_119263194

It not a bit funny. It's a fact. There is ten of thousands of houses and apartments out there that owners will not rent because of sh!t like this. This is the second or third similar thread on Boards about situations like this where when owners are returning from abroad tenants have refused to vacate e en though given valid notice.

There are people in nursing home, living with there adult children or with family members and they will not rent there house because of the risk involved.

Not paying the rent is only part of the problem. Getting a house back damaged can cost ten of thousands. Where the house is being only rented for a temporary period ( awaiting probate, elderly owner in nursing home or with family members) there is huge reluctance to rent such properties now.

There is even houses where owners have rented previously where they will no longer rent.

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263301#Comment_119263301

But why complain about the risk of losing money from lost rent if their solution is to not rent instead? They have lost the entire income then.

Sounds like emotional rather than rational/ actual responses.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263651#Comment_119263651

There is a huge difference in renting a house you intend to rent. I have two. At this stage I rent them virtually unfurnished. If tenants dislike what is there they can replace and take the replacement away with them. It's relatively easy to visit 2-3 charity shops and to pick up good quality furniture at a reasonable price.

It's a totally different scenario to rent a property that was a personal home to a family or an elderly person. You can have furniture, white goods, flooring, bedding, kitchen utensils as well as personal items that may be worth ten of thousands aside from sentimental value.

We have a housing and a rental crisis. Everybody I'd going around flapping there hands, left wing politicians are on about getting another stick after another stick to beat LL's with. They are not looking at the reality on the ground just like you are not.

You can bring a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. Incidents like this only fuel the reasons why private citizens will not rent family properties. The risk outweighs the benefit. You cannot even trust a friend as this case shows.

If you are going abroad and have a house this says do not rent it.

If you have a house rented and think you need it back, start to look for vacant possession 12 months before you need it.

If you have a house with valuable contents do not rent.

Never presume that any tenant no matter how well you think you know them will not f@@k you over.

This is what all this tells you

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263192#Comment_119263192

Mediate for what?

The situation where the OP wants their house back, speedily, ideally with the rent they're owed, and the tenants (presumably) want to be able to find somewhere else to live and need a deposit and a reference to do so. And the OP presumably wants to do this without the expense of going through solicitors.

Why on earth should mediation take place if the owner needs the property back? No mediation needed, get out.

See above. Currently, tenants have possession, landlord has ownership but needs possession but has no valid tenancy agreement.

Essentially unless the tenants change their minds, the landlord has three choices and three choices only (or at least I can't think of any more):

1. Go the legal route via solicitors.
2. Go the mediation route.
3. Try for an illegal eviction, with all the comeback that entails.

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263727#Comment_119263727

What reality?

That people think leaving a house empty is going to be in the same condition as when it was lived in 10 years previously or whatever the time line is?

Better to sell it or rent it and get something for it, it's just silly to hold onto an asset which gives you only cost.

Take the furnishings out if they are of sedimental value, white goods will be worthless in a few years, if the house is not heated and ventilated regularly, it will degrade quickly.

airy fairy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263971#Comment_119263971

You haven't answered what they should mediate? There is no case. Tenants are overholding. No rental being paid. Obviously lots of unsavoury paths to take, but there is only one solution which is to start eviction. It will take time but no pandering should take place.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119264021#Comment_119264021

I have. Possession of a property which was rented out illegally, and on which no tax was paid.

Look, it's simple - try mediation, which could result in something in a couple of weeks to a couple of months. Or don't. Go the fully legal route, which will result in substantial costs and will take months to years to resolve. Nothing to lose going the mediation route, except a small bit of cash and a couple of months if it's unsuccessful, and there's the potential of a quick resolution.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119264123#Comment_119264123

What happens if they go to mediation and get an agreement but the tenants don't follow through? They don't sound like the most reliable if they've stopped paying rent. Then the owner is back at square one and has to go through the RTB dispute and legal route anyway. Some friends they turned out to be...

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119264020#Comment_119264020

The REALITY is that thousands if not ten of thousands of people are making the choice to leave houses empty.

I was talking to a census enumerator who said that out of less than 400 houses in his area 60+ were vacant. trying to remember exactly but about 15 houses were vacant due to owners in nursing home's, deceased and awaiting probate.

It's not that easy to store the contents of a houses. Most people do not consider that a house will be empty for ten years. Most think that they will make the decision in a year or so's time. But time slips by.

White goods if unplugged and cleaned out will remain in the same condition for years.

The REALITY is that people are unwilling in situation like this to rent these types of house's

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265071#Comment_119265071

Hmm, is the census guy in rural Leitrim?

By my estimation, you cannot claim most of these houses are rentable and the owners choose not to rent, preferring to leave them empty.

There are houses with persons in nursing homes who cannot rent under fair deal scheme and it is still their home, derelict houses or not in a condition to rent, state owned stock left vacent, investor held stock where they are waiting for other units to become vacent before rebuilding, etc etc.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265127#Comment_119265127

No it's not in Leitrim, it in Limerick within 20 miles of the city.

You are incorrect. Yes houses can be rented under the fair deal scheme. The government has actually changed the rules lately so that the amount going towards fair deal is reduced to virtually zero.

Did you read my post at all there was over sixty total. These were fifteen houses that were in liveable condition.

There was about six council houses four that were being refurbished and two that were boarded up.

Another two where probate was complete were used as holiday homes by inheritors in an non holiday location( these people lived in Dublin but chose to leave the houses empty as well).

I am not claiming that all would be rented but if even 50% considered it it would substantially increase housing supply

There was about 8 properties vacant that were previously rented 2 that were poor condition but the rest were in good condition. Two were in the process of a refurbishment but LL had stopped because of building costs

Another two that were previously tented were for sale one of these was in poor condition.

He said that a number of commercial buildings ( small shops, pubs) that previously had living areas overhead were claiming these areas as commercial now( this avoids property tax)

I have a rental property in a small estate. There is two properties that have been vacant for the last five years.

Ap2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263249#Comment_119263249

The registration of the agreement with the RTB will have no impact on their helping the tenants.

This would be a matter of injunction. Going on about eviction notices misses the point and how this operates legally. If a judge issues an injunction putting the "tenants" back in the home then there isn't any need for an eviction order. Failing to comply with an injunction will see you held in contempt. This is all enforced by the Gardaí - and a judge will absolutely jail you for a failure to comply with an injunction. That's a matter that goes to the authority of the court.

Girl Geraldine

Contempt of court is an easy one to skirt around too if you know how to play the game. They might talk a very big and tough game about it, but ultimately even if you do get taken into custody over it, you'll be released on the quiet shortly.

There are people out there who can dance around the courts like fairies. Give and undertaking to the court to honour a court order. Renege on it. Be threatened with contempt. Promise again. be slow to deliver on it. Half deliver and then go back on it. be in contempt. Purge it by giving another undertaking again. Come half good on it and then go back and renege again.

Remember that woman in Bandon who repeatedly defied court orders trying to force her to wear a mask going into the local shops. She openly defied the court. Was in contempt, was sent to prison until she purged her contempt, (which she had no intention of doing) and she was subsequently released quietly after a few days in the Dochas or somewhere.

I am not recommending here that OP should break the law. They should not. All I am saying is that there are people out there who are not afraid of the law and see it largely as a paper tiger and are quite happy to fúck around with the justice system in a game of cat and mouse because there realise that, ultimately, they actually can't do much to you if you are downright brazen enough.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265317#Comment_119265317

I know it's immaterial where it registered or not. But it slows the process down. The RTB cannot rock up to the high court looking for an injunction against an individual just on the say so of another.

It's not just the matter of an injunction. In this case the owners have repossessed there own house. If after the judge jail's the mother and father for contempt if a brother or sister move in to look after the children or their grand parents will the judge jail them too.

If the gardai arrive and 30-40 friends and neighbors are around the house will they baton charge them. No they will take there names and threaten them with court. But at this stage you have a horrible vista. If the political establishment were unwilling to put in water meters because of a load of gougers protesting will they throw a family out onto the street

You seem so sure. There is no judge will go down that route because he know it would be unfair on Gardai. Even the RTB would be reluctant to look for such an injunction. They be making sure that all the t were crossed and I's dotted and even then they might not do it.

And this is all presuming that the squatters are willing to go down the RTB route and live with the social media and societal conquences

This is not some apparently well off LL or corporate/ semi corporate entity. This is a family that are homeless because a group of squatters are unwilling to move out

This is one court battle small and big landlords would love.

If it went that far the owners could appeal the injunction to the Supreme Court and look for a stay on constitutional grounds of property rights of the family home. Believe you me this would not go to the RTB or to court

Girl Geraldine

Move into the house and if a case comes against you just play the game. Tie the whole thing up with applications for deferral of the case owing to illness. If the case eventually goes against you, just appeal it as many times as you are allowed, and when those hearings come about, just seek more deferral on account of stress or something. Make the process so drawn out and hassle filled that it's just such a waste of everyone's time that they will just loose the will to fight it.

If you play it cute, you could spin an RTB case out for years without having to pay a penny.

rightmove

OP - what is your next likely move?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265610#Comment_119265610

OP do not mention anything about you next likely move.

rightmove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265643#Comment_119265643

hard to advise someone if they dont have an idea of how they are measuring up the advice given. what resonates and what doesnt etc. why go on boards.ie if you dont want advice

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265809#Comment_119265809

You can give advice without needing to know the details that identify the OP and may disadvantage them.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265522#Comment_119265522

If the gardai arrive and 30-40 friends and neighbors are around the house will they baton charge them. No they will take there names and threaten them with court.

Gardaí seem to have no problem "making sure there's not breach of the peace" when corporate landlords/banks have called in the sheriff who have called in bailiffs to enforce evictions, on many well publicised occasions in recent years. But that's after court orders have been obtained.

This is one court battle small and big landlords would love.

Oh, yeah, the OP would clearly love the hassle and expense of going to court.

If it went that far the owners could appeal the injunction to the Supreme Court and look for a stay on constitutional grounds of property rights of the family home. 

The objective here isn't to win some great moral victory. OP wants their house back as soon as possible, so they can move back in and have a roof over their heads, and are clearly not in the position of being able to afford court and appeals to the Supreme Court.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265593#Comment_119265593

Move into the house

The only way to do that is illegal.

OP, there is some terrible "advice" on this thread. Phone some mediators, see what they say. And/or get a solicitor.