FEC committee & final report - **UPDATE post 442**

BSA International

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119874353#Comment_119874353

I see. No hassle 😉

Cass

As said before, lash away.

No one is going to stop you and how could they even if they wanted to, but as I've made clear my own personal belief is it's a futile endeavour if for no other reason not one person has put forward anything resembling a workable plan to even start to tackle this.

The, and I'm not singling out anyone so if I mention your idea it's coincidence, ideas of lobbying, writing to TDs, writing to the Minister, asking for meetings, etc, etc have all been done to death over the past twenty years by much larger and better organised groups who had official standing on actual Government committees and still the politicians smiled, congratulated them for a great presentation and swiftly proceeded with their [politicians] original agenda/plan.

Nothing new has been suggested and nothing suggested has ever worked. Its not pessimism that leads me to say it's futile, it's experience.

BSA International

Grizzly,

As I said I've no iron in the fire atm & I think you're wasting your time but as you've skin in the game I reckon you have nothing to loose.

If they come for mine again, as I know they will sooner or later, I'll worry about it then.

Munsterlad102

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119874620#Comment_119874620

As I said already AGS is not the cause of this

Never said they did, but they did call for it and are trying to capitalize on this. Sure look at every article where a Garda comments on firearms legislation, they all call for further restrictions on every type of firearm imaginable, CFSA, restricted shotguns, 22 pistols, hell even 22 semi auto rifles. Lets not forget what happened after the 1972 and 2008 orders, AGS tried to reinterpret the law and ban handguns. They've done it before and they'll do it again.

Plus no range will alienate AGS over something they had no hand in.

Well maybe they should, if the legislature is going to piggyback off our facilities yet attack our sport, then why should we facilitate them? Why should we not play hardball with the state?

The reason we have 22 pistols is because the 2008 ban was aimed only at CF pistols.

Eh no. Then why don't we have 22 magnum pistols or any other rimfire pistols or 22 air pistols? https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/citation/news/29 I know it's not the most reputable source but I couldn't find the original article. But nevertheless it still clearly state Minister Dermot Ahern wanted to ban handguns outright.

AGAIN if the Minister had taken the recommendation of the so called coalition they would be mostly gone too as the coalition called for the banning of any 22 pistol with a barrel length of less than 5 inches, iirc.

Then why aren't sub 5 inch 22 pistols, or 223 rifles, or restricted shotguns on the chopping block then? Why are 1950s CFSA rifles not exempted then? All were policies of the coalition, but not one was taken in full. You're attributing far, far too much to the coalition rather than other actors.

As I previously said people are probably sick hearing me talk about this but here we are, 7 years later, suffering the consequences of that secret set of proposals while the man that spear headed it now sits in the FEC.

Again, you're attributing too much to your man. If the minister is under some kind of trance from your man, then why doesn't she listen to him now, after all he's changed his mind on CFSA according to the minutes from the 3rd meeting of the FEC?

And if anyone thinks the FEC is finished because semi autos are gone you're sadly mistaken. The FEC is still ongoing and that should scare the scrap out of everyone.

Agreed. The minutes from the 3rd meeting would indicate that they're going to redefine "assault rifles" and the "resemble" part.

Neither you nor I may not have skin in this game, but that doesn't mean that we should sit back and let the 38+ people who are affected have their firearms banned. If we don't put up a fight, then the legislature will come for more and more until we're shooting airsoft guns at targets.

Grizzly 45

Never said they did, but they did call for it and are trying to capitalize on this. Sure look at every article where a Garda comments on firearms legislation, they all call for further restrictions on every type of firearm imaginable, CFSA, restricted shotguns, 22 pistols, hell even 22 semi auto rifles. Lets not forget what happened after the 1972 and 2008 orders, AGS tried to reinterpret the law and ban handguns. They've done it before and they'll do it again.

Indeed they did, but look at the time period when this was .2008 and 2014 pre-Dail public inquiry and post many DC/HC court cases,not to mind Costs being awarded and now if true, both opponent bodies to us were suggesting a compromise of grandfathering those 38 licenses!

That is pretty pertinent because a decade ago there neither of those two bodies would have suggested such a move!!! Not for a moment saying its all good and they are on our side,but it is somewhat of a sea change in Govt dept thinking. Also, if the minister is not taking their committee's advice that too is sea change thinking on their part as then they also have to accept the consequences of their actions directly in flying in the advice of their committee and dept heads. Its the core reason to have these committees and Dept head advisors on particular topics,as no minister appointed can be an expert on all things. The decisions lie finally with the minister, but so do the consequences.

So this smells to me of an ego run by one or both of these ministers, looking at picking low-hanging fruit and probably dreaming of being behind a table full of "assault rifles" sht grinning at RTE camera crews and declaring they have made Ireland a safer society by getting these assault weapons out of circulation..... Not on my watch they won't!

Of course, AGS would call for the banning of X types of guns. We saw this in the Winter of 2013 when they literally used a shotgun approach to try and ban everything in a hope something would stick.preferably SACF, pistols of all types and restricted shotguns,which was the last desperate tactic of a certain Garda firearms expert who was shown up as a fool across the Dist courts of Ireland. So unless they call for the same again,and I'd expect them to do so,its part of an elaborate dance.

Well maybe they should, if the legislature is going to piggyback off our facilities yet attack our sport, then why should we facilitate them? Why should we not play hardball with the state?

Im at a loss as to why they need to use Midlands or others[?]in the first place. They apparently spent millions buying these container shooting ranges from General Ranges in Dungannon in N Ireland. A basic demo model is over 750K STG,and apparently, AGS bought 4 or 5 of them new and distributed them around the state. So why train on a mere civilian range? Is this why the proposed act now has this detail about AGS firing range certification?

smmember20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119863109#Comment_119863109

Wow: Actually I am all right jack, I have a AR style .223 S/A prior to the cut off date, so right back in the mirror to you, with your not so kind words!

My actual commentary is that up to and including this, noone made any differentiation betweem any types of CF SA, since 2015 and the Minister and AGS got together the clock was ticking, anyone who licenced an AR or any SA after that date should have/must have known the day of reckoning would come.

My point is that the target of the AGS is the AR style rifle, like it or not it is dye cast and you can argue all you want, I was and still am of the view that there could be something salvaged in the lines as described, but I fear we have no lobby group strrong enought to get it even in front of the minister, it is a done deal and all are going to be included like it or not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

smmember20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119863001#Comment_119863001

In fairness nothing is getting thrown under the bus, it left the depot in 2015 so wake up to reality please!

Cass

@smmember20 My actual commentary is that up to and including this, noone made any differentiation betweem any types of CF SA

The so-called sports coalition did. They specifically asked/recommended that any semi auto centerfire prior to 1950 NOT be included in any band, cap or future legislation.

Grizzly 45

If you dont expect sht to be thrown at you,then maybe THINK how your posts is gonna read b4 you hit the send button?

Writing like that made you look like the quintessial Fudd more concerned at saving their particular type of firearm.

Yeah,I could also take that attitude as I am sorted pre 2015 as well.But I choose not to and if it was legal to aquire another gun post 2015,why not,as there was no time of enactment mentioned in this intent from the ministers involved.Nor was BTW any info forthcoming from AGS to anyone that such gun lics might be revokedinthefuture.

IOW why deny oneself somthing if it was possible to legally own and use it?

BSA International

"I choose not to and if it was legal to aquire another gun post 2015,why not,as there was no time of enactment mentioned in this intent from the ministers involved."

She did say the intention was to revoke any granted after her announcement when legislation was sorted.

"Nor was BTW any info forthcoming from AGS to anyone that such gun lics might be revokedinthefuture."

I know of a lad that Garda did advise that the post 2015 licence he was being granted may he revoked in the future.

Cass

@Grizzly 45 Nor was BTW any info forthcoming from AGS to anyone that such gun lics might be revokedinthefuture.

Because of the lack of proper quotes I cannot tell if you said this or someone else but as its under your username I'll assume it was you.

The Garda commissioner said in the updated guidelines in 2018;

Issuing persons and applicants alike should be mindful that, on 18th September 2015, the Minister for Justice and Equality announced that any new restricted firearm certificates for centre fire semi-automatic rifles, granted between that date and the enactment of proposed legislation banning the future licensing of these types of firearms, shall stand revoked.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878117#Comment_119878117

Sorry,fat fingers with no nails typing on a phone touchscreen while awaiting an appointment😉.

Indeed the did say that Cass...Point being is how many people would know about this particular legislative point NOT reading boars.ie/shooting and involving them in the debate? Remember its only about1% if at that population know or read here about current events.Before you say anyone involved with SACF or owning one post-2015 would know about this upcoming ban. I got a call from someone today worried about the possible loss of their rifle, and they were unaware of it and a total anti boards.ie person.

So...ignorance willful or...Maybe just should have read boards.ie?😉 Point being,did anyone when they applied for these rifles,get a formal notice from their FAO or Cheif saying "You realise these might not be licensable in the future at a date yet to be announced,and you stand a good chance of losing this gun under the intended legislation?" Apart from for BSA intl friend in previous post.

We hammered this point out over the years here that this was a self ban and because of this very point of having no idea when this act might commence is what caused 38 people to go and get them. maybe if there had been a formal note with our applications there might have been less people applying?

Grizzly 45

Well.Welll.Welll... Lookkeee this folks .Sent to me from one of my "friends" How DID Mr Walsh get on FEC??Apart from living in Min Browne's constituency...

His friend!!!

Are you outraged yet???

BSA International

Ignorance of the law is not a defence in law.........

In fairness it's not a crime to be friends with a politican. Leo leaked info to his friend and what happened? Nowt !

Cass

@Grizzly 45 You don't have to be on Boards or even like the forum, but I find it incredulous that anyone, over the past 7 years, was not made aware of this. Through their own research or just word of mouth.

I've come across many people that claimed they did not know *such and such* was happening and that is fine, not everyone needs to know all aspects of shooting politics . But the SACF club is very, very small accounting for less than 0.05% of the shooting community so I do not understand this in it knowing everything going on in relation to these guns.

As for AGS not warning them. The simple answer is it's not their job. The firearms act specifically states that the onus is on the applicant to know the type of license required, so one could say by extension the applicant should know it would stand revoked.

I'm not making excuses for either side here nor am I blaming either side but it's not quite as black and white as "they should have told us" and I do understand the anger being felt and the need to blame someone but the end result is always going to be "we told ye, you were warned" .

Grizzly 45

There is more to that saying too... "the law must also be clear that each man may understand it to obey it" Nor was it, and still isn't "law" so...

No, it's not a crime, but if you are a politician who is claiming to be using an impartial committee to advise you and your choices are ;

A chairwoman, a person who was a former TV personality has no clue on the topics involved and is in tight with other politicians from Cork of the FF/G persuasion

An ex-gun dealer who hasn't traded in at least 8 years in your constituency,and came with "baggage" from previous relations with government officials in your Dept. Seemingly not heeding a single word of your appointed committee, your Dept heads and Garda rep

People just might consider you a tad biased on the subject you are supposed to legislate impartially on.IOW are you just doing a pro forma charade to satisfy some openness and transparency lark?

Forgone conclusion that nothing would happen to Leo.did anyone honestly think the DPP would find a charge against the most powerful political man in Ireland?The exact same office that appoints the DPP?🙄

More damaging for the govt in any future case not just with shooters.as who will bother going on a committee,if the minister loads it with both overt and possibly covert choices or political favourites [it seems Mr Walsh is a great FF supporter too] and declares it in the prerequisite to be" impartial" About as impartial as hand picking a jury of KKK members in a black mans trial. No one will ever go near another committee from this dept again if this is true.

Grizzly 45

@Grizzly 45 You don't have to be on Boards or even like the forum, but I find it incredulous that anyone, over the past 7 years, was not made aware of this. Through their own research or just word of mouth.

I've come across many people that claimed they did not know *such and such* was happening and that is fine, not everyone needs to know all aspects of shooting politics . But the SACF club is very, very small accounting for less than 0.05% of the shooting community so I do not understand this in it knowing everything going on in relation to these guns.

Well,be incredudled [is that a word?] then.As there was one such.

As for AGS not warning them. The simple answer is it's not their job. The firearms act specifically states that the onus is on the applicant to know the type of license required, so one could say by extension the applicant should know it would stand revoked.

But that's not a requirement in the firearms act law...Your part of the legal knowledge is to fulfill the requirements of wanting such a firearm.Do you fulfil the requirements Yes/No? Be an almost paralegal on the firearms acts and in depth knowledge of whats going on about them?NO!

Cass

Paralegal? That's a stretch. It's one piece of information, albeit being a major one. There is no requirement to know or understand the firearms act, and it would do feck all good as there is nothing in the act to inform you of a potential ban.

I also never said it was a requirement in law however your argument is also the reason that AGS are under no obligation to inform anyone of any possible changes to the law and in fact they would be accused of trying to dissuade people if they have such a warning.

They cannot refuse to issue a license based on possible, future, legislation.

garrettod

You lot could not be doing a better job of showing why our sport is being killed off, if you tried.

Instead of these pointless squabbles, would you not all agree to do something constructive, for the sport (at large)?

Seriously, in house bickering, gets us no where, and leaves us even more vulnerable, going forward.

Unite the (shooting) clans...

https://youtu.be/g2oJhWi5SQ4

Cass

Sorry, but I'm laughing to myself about the video clip.

In the film Robert betrayed him and sided with the English. Not only fitting to our situation but exactly what happens among our shooting groups.

garrettod

Sadly, that's true.... albeit, Wallace was right about standing togeather. Its the betrayal, and "in house" squabbling, that beats us, not our opposition😊

Grizzly 45

More fitting is Mel Gibsons line about the committees of Scottish Lairds."They'd argue about the shade of brown of their own Sh$t before doing anything !"

BattleCorp

I'm meeting my local TD on Monday. I'd hope that many other people are going to their TDs about this.

It might get us nowhere but at least I won't be accused of playing the fiddle while Rome burns.

Grizzly 45

Found this most intresting speech on this by Mc Entee on Kildare St.com At least we now finally have a definition of why IPSC is banned too in this? https://www.kildarestreet.com/committees/?id=2022-11-08a.1305

The proposed new section 10 provides for a cap on the licensing of semi-automatic centrefire rifles. Deputies may be aware that a semi-automatic centrefire rifle is a rifle that does not need to be manually reloaded between shots and can use centrefire ammunition. There are two main types of ammunition, centrefire and rimfire. Centrefire is a more powerful type of ammunition that can travel further. What I am proposing in this section, on public safety grounds, is in line with a previous announcement by the then Minister on 18 September 2015. I would share the concerns of the Garda Síochána in regard to public safety. I also acknowledge the dedication and responsibility of the owners of legally held firearms in the State. I refer to this measure as a cap as opposed to an absolute ban, given it will allow persons who previously held a firearm certificate for these types of rifles before 18 September 2015 to continue to renew their certificates. I think this is an appropriate and balanced measure, given it is forward looking and not retrospective to the period before the then Minister's announcement of 2015

On the last bit,I have just puked in my waste basket!!!

Finally also,we have a definition of what dynamic shooting is by the ministers own words;

The proposed new sections 11 to 14, inclusive, follow legal advice on the issue of dynamic shooting, which refers to any form of activity in which firearms are used to simulate combat. There is currently a prohibition on dynamic shooting in the principal Act and I am advised that this extends to the Garda Síochána, which would not be appropriate. Section 14 clarifies that the prohibition on dynamic shooting does not apply to a garda in the course of his or her duties.

Grizzly 45

Now somthing else to quare the pitch!

Heather Humphries is taking over from MC Entee today as she is going on preggers leave and Heather is in charge to Dec 17th when there is a cabinet reshuffle and Leo & Co take over and a "new" minister for justice is installed. So its now a question for anyone,who do we literally talk to on this in the next 30 days starting today?, Browne, Humphries or the new FG head?

garrettod

I'd be going above Browne's head, as a starting point - he's only an understudy, and I seriously doubt he'll get promoted next month.

I also don't think that he'll listen to reason, at least not from the shooting community, given this is personal agenda. However, he'll probably listen to his master, if he thinks it'll help his career (and assuming it's not going to be a case of going for him, via the local electorate).

Grizzly 45

October minutes of the FEC meeting.Very informative[Sarcasm]

Gotta laugh at this logic here.So Pre 2015 SACF the good reasons of suitability for either hunting/target shooting is perfectly fine for a chief to grant a license.

But POST 2015, according to these minutes, these are not "suitable" anymore!!! I would be laughing if this utter farce wasn't so stupid and tragic.

Think the best thing our side can do now is resign from this charade of a committee. It's nothing more than pro forma theatre, where these two are going to be seen as Judas goats by the shooting community.

https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/239593/cc80f096-e2c1-4481-b2cc-bb6bb7af00dd.pdf#page=null

smmember20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119877726#Comment_119877726

I have all of the above! So I'm really OK not throwing anyone under a bus done a long time ago as in 2015 where has the lobby been since then!

Cass

What? Your reply is barely comprehensible. No punctuation, and one continuous sentence makes it almost impossible to understand but I'll try.

What has your having "all these" got to do with the above? You said no one differentiated between the various types of semi autos which is wrong. The so called coalition made a very distinct differentiation in an attempt to save one aspect of the sport by throwing the rest under the bus.

Not sure what you mean by "done a long time ago" other than you implying that all is well because the anti shooting acts carried out by the so called coalition were done back in 2015 and so we should all just quietly move on and pay no attention to it anymore. Well 2015 was a while ago but the ban is coming, probably next year, so it seems it's very relevant today.

Finally regarding the "lobby" and what it has been up to. Both those points can be answers together with, THERE IS NO GUN LOBBY IN IRELAND.

There are a bunch of agenda driven, vested interest, groups but none that I know off that solely represented (at the time) 35 guys, which has risen to some 78 today.

The other problem is the so called sports coalition that should be on the side of the shooter was busy giving away the farm without being asked, pushed or coerced. So in the Ministers mind the "gun lobby" wanted these guns gone too. Well, only ones they [the so called coalition] didn't approve off.

So the "lobby" you speak off is non existent and if there was something resembling one it was secretly selling all of you down the River instead of standing up for and trying to protect your sport.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889799#Comment_119889799

For what it's worth it's there in black and white that they do not agree.