FEC committee & final report - **UPDATE post 442**

smmember20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243843#Comment_119243843

Well proof yes of course: we still have them!

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119246659#Comment_119246659

How did they/He achieve this? What ban were they fighting against that the rest of us never heard off? Via what route they do this (FCP, etc)?

Thanks.

smmember20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243980#Comment_119243980

XX

smmember20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119246670#Comment_119246670

Thanks for thanking me, as with all threats to our ownership of sporting firearms, the opportunity for change is coached in underhand dealing and not always easily defined, so no I cannot live up to your requirement to prove conclusively that we could have lost all out .22 pistols...............sorry

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119246693#Comment_119246693

You don't have to prove it conclusively. I'll even take bits. Like a link to the prosposed ban they alledgedly fought against (whomever wanted to ban them must have released a statement, like the DoJ did with SACF rifles). Who proposed the pistol ban they were fighting? How they stopped it, even if its only your relaying of the information rather than actual documentation.

At the moment, and going by your post I've just quoted, its akin to saying it never happened. In other words they won a non existent battle. In which case its disengenuous to claim to have won something that never happened.

Cass

smmember20 - So put simply many individuals have sought to substitute their CF pistols, (including myself), I have not heard of one single issue and on renewal there has been no issue with the renewal of the substituted firearm.

This is not germane to the thread topic, but forgive me for asking. Are you saying that people have substituted their CF pistol license and then renewed the substituted license, not the original license?

If so then you have a problem because the law may provide a loophole to allow you to sub to another pistol, but come renewal time if the pistol was not licensed to you prior to November 2008 then it stands void/revoked.

Of course if you mean you sub back to your original license, renew it, then sub back to the "new" gun, then that makes sense.

Grizzly 45

From the DoJ site

In total, 14 applications were received for the position of chair and 34 for the positions of ordinary member.

34?.. 34?applications for the position???We ought to be ashamed of ourselves in the shooting community. 😡

BSA International

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119247476#Comment_119247476

Ashamed of what?

It's a stacked deck. Always was gonna be. Why would anyone put their name forward to be a scapegoat?

Grizzly 45

I could say a lot on that BSA,but "better to have tried and failed, than never tried at all!" kind of springs to mind.Or should I paraphrase this for Ireland?"Better to have never tried at all, and then B&M about the outcome of something you never tried to change or participate in at all!"

It's always the same here. An opportunity no matter how slim comes about, and 99.99% say its stacked, fake,this, that or the other, and don't participate. Then when change comes its "could have done XYZ" or "so and so is stupid so and so for doing that!" We are not going to change anything by not at least trying to get into the tent. Seeing that there are plenty of people here and in the community who would have filled this role admirably than what was chosen, and are not really known or keep away from the politics, and wouldn't give two damns worth if they are liked or disliked. I'm just surprised that for such a vocal community amongst ourselves, there wasn't 340 names to choose from. But, then again, maybe I've overestimated us, again in how much we really want to fight to keep our guns and sport.

Grizzly 45

So put simply many individuals have sought to substitute their CF pistols, (including myself), I have not heard of one single issue and on renewal, there has been no issue with the renewal of the substituted firearm.

I know of one case, a lad living up in the NW is having awful problems doing a sub for as 9mm to a 40SW. Haven't seen him since Before Covid[BC} on the range to see how he got on... But TBH this is not one I'd stick my head around the corner for until it becomes a lot more common,if at all.

AGS can shut this down in an instant too, by simply making it "policy" not to facilitate such substitutions on CF handguns and reason it as being too messy in the license /PULSE bookkeeping. Which TBH it is, going by;

Are you saying that people have substituted their CF pistol license and then renewed the substituted license, not the original license?

If so then you have a problem because the law may provide a loophole to allow you to sub to another pistol, but come renewal time if the pistol was not licensed to you prior to November 2008 then it stands void/revoked.

Of course, if you mean you sub back to your original license, renew it, then sub back to the "new" gun, then that makes sense.

Yeahhhhh...That doesn't sound very safe, uncomplicated or easy ...To me anyway... If it has worked for some folks, more power to them, but I'd say if we start making a habit of it,it will be shut down by AGS,even if the Cheif in your dist entertains it.

BSA International

I totally agree with you.

However, in this situation shooters will never "win". Can you agree to that?

For example, Nargc have approx 28,000 members, probably the largest shooting organisation in Republic. They weren't chosen despite a verifiable membership. Says it all really.

You know the history eg fcp. Our own have done us the most damage. Certain people gravitate towards these positions. The rest of us just rather the actual shooting more than the politics and bs.

Cribbing is all we can do most of the time. We need a politically orientated element to fight our corner, that's not aligned to any particular discipline, to represent us in the political arena.

smmember20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119246740#Comment_119246740

No I am not saying that, I said the process as outlined related to substitution is working.

jb88

This whole saga was sponsored by Paul Walsh approaching a TD in his constituency and convincing him that there are major problems with Firearms in Ireland, James Browne is currently the TD for North Wexford, as based out of Enniscorthy.

Paul Walsh is in Gorey, Co Wexford coincidence I think not. I think I told a few in the shooting community this a year ago, that he was behind this, leading a TD who knows nothing about firearms down a rabbit hole. This has been brewing since 2020. When lads get bored they dream up lots of stuff and this committee is one of them.

Anyone here think he was plucked out of the sky. This is destined to failure.

No senior member of the DOJ would ever take him seriously, given his previous relationship with the FCP.

"Just a one man wrecking ball", is the best way to describe him. Thats a complement by the way, love ya Paul, but its too little too late. You had your chance with the FCP and ruined it.

Whats the end goal a "state backed", mandatory shooting course before you can get a licence is the main one, so he unlike others before him can finally get a viable business off the back of this. This is one of the recommendations, mark my words.

The DOJ are fully aware of whats going on, but are forced to facilitate this request for a committee which will do nothing except make recommendations and stir up trouble

All of this will come to a dead end, hate to burst everyones bubble here, its already been decided so carry on.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119248086#Comment_119248086

Well," winning " is I suppose is subjective to your outlook. For example most of the EU was clamping down on SACF,and most would like to see CF handguns gone.But we bucked the trend here in Ireland and regained them after a 35-year hiatus as well as .22 pistols. Yes,it took a lot of blood , sweat and tears and money,but in the end, it was a "win " for us. Will we ever get back everything that we lost, probably not. But if we hold what we have,I'd consider that a win too?

It was a given that no organisations or reps of "the gun lobby" in Ireland were going to get on this committee. Min Browne even said this on the Pat Kenny Show on Newstalk on Sept21st last year. Pity he didn't specify what exactly the "gun lobby " was here,as it would have changed a few CVs.

Yes indeed there is a certain type attracted to the politics, and that's why there is this uproar here about one ministerial choice.Who also was involved in destroying the FCP, by claiming criminal activity of his erstwhile allies in a press release, and wouldn't sit in the same room with them in the FCP... Who is also now an EX gun dealer since his company was dissolved in Dec 2016, strange DOJ does not know this?Or him being a chairman of a gun lobby group here in Ireland,and has graced the halls of the Dept in person a few times no doubt. And of course, it's an absolute coincidence that he is a constituent of min Brown himself? So just for a point of this group being neutral and not hung with a biased or odd choice on the minister's part in lieu of his statement on national media,to maybe ask this member to clarify his positions on these matters?

As for your last point, that's what FUNI is trying to be, and is in the EU, and is registered to do so in Brussels.

Grizzly 45

"Just a one man wrecking ball", is the best way to describe him. That's a complement by the way, love ya Paul, but its too little too late. You had your chance with the FCP and ruined it.

So IOW he has nothing to lose being a "yes man" on this committee,as he has no gun dealership, shooting range or business and no political lobby group anymore and by agreeing with everything that's proposed, could screw us all over in a revenge act by agreeing to whatever the others want removed or banned ? Lovely!!!

Cass

MODERATOR WARNING

Sending this out as a pre-emptive warning for all.

Mr. Walsh may well be viewed as a contentious pick for this committee, however his actions are the only things relevant to this discussion.

Any attempts to insult, or make personal attacks on Mr. Walsh will result in post deletion and immediate moderator action. You are free to discuss him in the context of his appointment to the committee, which can include his history, but that is the limit of this discussion.

17hmr1

..

Cass

To get back on topic.

My concern with this committee is the perceived ineffectiveness of it, already. The FCP, even in its previous incarnations, was a much stronger tool and despite the bickering between the various shooting groups there was a sense of working together (if only at times). Its biggest achievement, in my opinion, was its ability to stave off such "attacks" on the shooting community. In other words while they couldn't reverse or possibly even influence legislation they did manage to stop certain things before they happened. You had a dozen reps from all the shooting community/groups having their say.

Since about 2016 that changed with the self inflicted "death of the FSAI, and subsequent suspension of the of the FCP since 2018 has meant representation has basically been non existent.

This new committee is not like the others. Smaller, more focused, with an agenda/schedule rather than all encompassing "chat", with the DoJ/AGS better represented than the shooting community.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119246659#Comment_119246659

Well seeing as we are making stuff up, I stopped single barrel shotguns being banned. What proof have I got, we still have them!

Grizzly 45

To take a few points from above;

The Media and press. I think the general consensus since the Primetime bait&switch interview with William Egan and hatchet jobs that have been done to the various ranges and groups,is No one will talk to them anymore,as we know comments will be taken out of context, misquoted or otherwise abused to paint a picture or stereotype...Remember the NARGC lads RTE news interview and the pheasant season during Covid? So give them nothing, their story dies.

The mental health checks.No doc wants this responsibility or workload and it is ineffective as seen in the UK and Germany and Italy. It would be as valid as your NCT, the moment you are on the road outside the docs office, it's null and void, and as I said before, you are not under oath in your doctor's office to tell them how you really feel.

The committees in their various guises and acronyms; Apart from showing the DOJ what a bunch of prima donnas, and children throwing their teddies from their prams we had as reps. What did they achieve in the long run, as it seemed to be all one-way traffic from the minister downwards, and very little or anything going back up of benefit to us?

In theory, they are a good idea and should be kept open, but it would need staffing by responsible adults on our side and reps of organisations of provable membership with membership being reviewed on an annual basis. So if someone decides they are taking their ball home and don't want a part anymore, off they go and are struck off, and some other org can be invited.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119248292#Comment_119248292

As per my previous, I don’t know a Paul Walsh. But Google (and threads on here) suggests the above is incorrect. A quick search shows he has a business, a range, and a dealership. So probably has more on the line than most.

Reading the EOI it’s clear they preferred a RFD or somebody similarly involved in all aspects. There was a very low number of applications, I wonder if they were all suitable or if the practical pool was even smaller.

kunekunesika

He has a website for a range and a shop. Check the last date they were updated, or try to find the range in gorey? To the best of my knowledge neither have been operating for a number of years. ( Obviously open to correction there)

If you check on boards you will only find 2 dealers mentioned or recommended in the gorey area, John Lambert JL firearms and ballistech.

Grizzly 45

As I said his company is East coast hunting and shooting LTD (or Visa versa) was registered dissolved in Dec 2016. It only was officially a Ltd company for a year in 2015. Www.solocheck.ie will confirm.

Go to the website,and see if you can buy anything,you get a" Shop under construction "message.Ditto the Sports colation webpage is completely wiped.No registered name for a gun dealer under his name comes up for Wexford.So where is his shop if he is trading as a sole trader? Is he trading from home?Anyone bought anything off him in this time?So how is he a gun dealer for the last 6 years then?

Mellor

Would be interesting to see if the phantom RFD backed his application

Grizzly 45

D'you mean this lot? Think he was a member, once.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/huge-drop-in-gun-dealerships-leading-to-more-smuggling-1.3577318

Munsterlad102

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251575#Comment_119251575

If that's the case, then it'll be interesting to see how he got the position. How the board could appoint someone with a failed business, club and organisation.

Anyone in contact with him? If so, any idea where he stands, will he actually stand up for shooting sports or will he turn collaborator for a second time?

garrettod

Perhaps we should be questioning the Minister, on this appointment?

Grizzly 45

From the Irish Deer society, FB post 12 th July.

It seems we have a new group being formed the Firearms User Representative Group [FURG]

Another SC in the making or a coherent force for once?

A Firearm Expert Panel was recently appointed by Minister James Browne TD to make recommendations regarding the current Firearm Licensing System and other related firearm matters.

The absence of a Firearm User Group within the expert panel has brought about the formation of the Firearm User Representative Group (FURG) made up of the organisations listed below. Attached is a statement issued by FURG in addition to communication with Ministers McEntee and Browne.

Member Organisations: National Association of Regional Game Councils, FACE Ireland (representing 14 fieldsports organisations), Irish Deer Society, Irish Deer Commission, Wild Deer Association of Ireland, Deer Alliance HCAP, Countryside Alliance (Ireland), Country Sports Ireland, Midlands National Shooting Centre of Ireland, Irish Firearms Dealers Association, Irish Clay Target Shooting Association, National Association of Sporting Rifle & Pistol Clubs, Irish Country Sports Association, Precision Rifles Ireland.

(A few other organisations are considering joining, and are awaiting the approval of their respective organisations)

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Cass

New incarnation of the FSAI?

richiedel123

I believe this is the outcome of the meeting that I heard about last week. There a good number of organisations on the same opinion about this "expert committee" Whether it will make a difference or not is another thing but it's worth a try in my opinion

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119329556#Comment_119329556

Who were they again? Can't remember half of the alphabet soup acronyms here anymore.

Cass

They were the successor of the SSAI (or was it the other way round) the group of shooting sports reps that would meet with DoJ and AGS reps and after 2014 later went on to be part of the FCP.

It died a death at the hands of those who last held stewardship.

BSA International

Hopefully won't turn out like the Sports Coalition did.

Grizzly 45

So long as no one decides to be um heap big Cheif and with control of money and speaking with forked tongue behind others' backs to cut um heap shady deals.

All this needs to succeed is a pact of common defence of ALL aspects of gun ownership here, and chosen reps of the various organisations representing disciplines with proven membership meeting with the dept with a common cause. No need for massive committees and fighting for someone to get their feet with an agenda under the Depts conference table. And preferably people who can act like adults and not throw their teddies out of the pram, or engage in interpersonal fights in the Dept conference room...

BSA International

I agree Grizzly.

Going on previous incarnations of this sort of thing it's probably same people doing the "talking" so the outcome will probably be the same 😞

Grizzly 45

Thats why I'd hope FURG concentrates on actions this time round than inter-political wrangles and internal power games for once.

BattleCorp

Speaking my mind here, maybe a good few here won't agree with me.

I'd also like to make it clear that I know nothing of FURG apart from what has been posted here, nor am I affilliated to any organisation that is a member of it.

I personally think the shooting community are in for a hiding with this FEC thing and the upcoming proposed legislation changes if they don't unite under one banner. The Minister doesn't give a flying fcuk about individual small organisations like many of the shooting organisations are, nor has the Minister the time nor the inclination to speak to all of them.

I don't know the people involved in the FURG but I applaud them, possibly naively, for trying to do something to help face off the threat to our sport. Yes, shooting groups have in the past tried to pull shennanigans to wrestle control of a certain aspect of shooting, or to solidify their own place at the expense of other groups, but the ramifications of what can happen as a result of the FEC committee recommendations cannot be understated. Amongst other things, the FEC can make recommendations:

• about what types of firearms should be licensable in the State and for what purposes.
• about specifiying locations where the firearm may be used.
• about whether there should be a limit on the number and type of firearms a person may hold. https://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Firearms-Expert-Committee-EOI.pdf/Files/Firearms-Expert-Committee-EOI.pdf

The above means that the Minister is thinking about limiting the types of guns that can be licenced (bye by semi-auto centrefire rifles....will he go after restricted semi-auto shotguns too?), and limiting the number of guns a shooter can licence. These are potentially huge changes.

I'd be of the opinion that shooting organisations who haven't been contacted by FURG should at least make contact and determine what the aim of FURG is, who is in charge, what way will they approach the Minister, what are their proposals etc. As long as FURG aren't willing to sacrifice any group(s), e.g. semi-auto centrefire owners etc., then I'd be in support of them.

I think individual approaches by shooting organisations have a far lesser chance of success than a joint approach This is an instance where I'd actually love to be wrong but that's the way I see it.

I fell out a long time ago with one of the shooting organisations currently listed in FURG but you can bet your bottom dollar that if I thought signing up with them would help protect my sport, unpaletable as that would be for me, I'd do it.

I think shooting organisations who don't get on with each other should try to put their differences aside and work together as a united front has a far better chance of protecting our sport.

Cass

I'd agree with pretty much all of what you said above except one thing. FURG won't "need to" sacrifice SACF owners, that is essentially settled (or done) with the Minister's statement back in 2015. They could attempt to salvage something by moving the grandfathering from Sept 2015 to more recently, but even that is a stretch.

The emergence of FURG seems to be as a direct result of the people appointed to the FEC, the manner in which they were appointed and the obvious outcome of the committee based on those appointments. My only criticism is this committee has been coming for over two years and only ow have the shootings groups finally come together to combat it.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119332379#Comment_119332379

I think they'll grandfather the few licences that were granted since Sept. 2015. Easier for them than court cases which would inevitably be taken.

Cass

True, but not a guaranteed win. Not like there were no warnings since 2015 about them. One could argue the length of time between the Minister's statement and enactment of any legislation, but not the intent of the statement.

smmember20

Firearms User Representative Group [FURG]

Another Sports Coalition good luck to them, only real issue I see is that there is only one constituent organization (NASRPC) that represent target shooters and clubs who's sole purpose is the pursuit of target shooting, the majority of the other organizations mentioned are hunting organizations and while they use firearms in my view they really do not represent the day to day firearms user. As an example, NARGC this is constituted as a hunting organization, while members use shotguns for hunting and some rifles for vermin control they are fundamentally a a hunting organization as are the Deer Societies, deer management is their core focus and not firearms ownership.

I am afraid my view and my own view only is that they will go nowhere, love to see their constitution, rules membership criteria or can anyone join. For sure Justice and the minister have created the FEC and they will not listen to a ragged thrown together organization, again my personal view.

BSA International

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119332506#Comment_119332506

For your info.

NASRPC members are the clubs not the individual members in them.

NARGC has approx 28,000 individual members.

LOTS of these game & vermin shooters you refer to in NARGC and the deer shooters are also target shooters.

May I suggest you stop trying to imply any one organisation is more important than another. We've had enough of that BS.

Cass

The so called sports coalition, ran by Mr Paul Walsh, were the ones the pushed for caps, bans and other further restrictions on shooting sports. His presence on this committee is an anomaly considering his position when in charge of the so called coalition.

As for "ragged thrown together group" the so called coalition started out with two men, then included a rag tag group of fringe, or tentatively linked to shooting, groups (some only created to make small numbers seem larger) eventually ending up with the NASRPC as a member (albeit only for a short while).

I mention all this simply because your apparent dismissal of this new group seems very hypocritical considering the organisation you are comparing them to (in a seemingly derogatory way) was ran by the very man sitting the FEC now, however they have some of the largest, most established, shooting groups that do not represent a single purpose.

So given your previous defense of the so called coalition are you saying you hope this group is as good as the so called coalition or will be as ineffective as it was? If it's the former then I hope they are much better and if it's the latter then it would seem to contradict your previous defense of them which is simply confusing.

smmember20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119333875#Comment_119333875

I suppose what I am realistically saying is the Minister has set up the FEC and I don't see engagement with any group outside of it at the present time, it may seem like a good idea to pull together the aforementioned groups all be it the largest being NARGC they are still fundamentally a hunting organization and I am not bigging one over the other, I just can't see any potential to be effective, I did say it was my opinion and I still say that. Sorry if you are confused but the dynamic is with the FEC and Justice and the new organization has no standing, regardless of numbers, that's all I am saying

BSA International

I'm sure these groups have political connections. NARGC defo do (Seanad nominating body iirc which is a bit more clout than simply having the Minister in your constituency). I'm sure there will be some lobbying of other ministers & TD's who may be able to make sure this sham committee will be less of a hatchet job and an earner for a few chancers.

Cass

I agree with you on the point about the FEC's engagement, or potential engagement with any group. I said before that I believe it's too little and far too late (any group trying to engage with the Minister)

I understand the Minister sets the terms and any engagement with that office can only happen if there is agreement to discussion from both sides. However we had that already in the SSAI, FSAI, the FCP and while I know you are all sick hearing it, it needs repeating as some don't seem to be absorbing it. We pissed it away with infighting, egos, back stabbing, and personal agendas. Most all of the recent stuff coming from the so called coalition, but to be clear they did not start such carry on, it's been happening for decades, however they were at the helm when that particular ship finally hit the iceberg.

My "confusion" stems from your defense of the so called coalition previously and then your liking this new group to the coalition, essentially saying both are/will be pointless. Seems to contradict all previous defense of the so called coalition.

Grizzly 45

The emergence of FURG seems to be as a direct result of the people appointed to the FEC, the manner in which they were appointed and the obvious outcome of the committee based on those appointments. My only criticism is this committee has been coming for over two years and only ow have the shootings groups finally come together to combat it.

Agree 100%

I think they'll grandfather the few licences that were granted since Sept. 2015. Easier for them than court cases which would inevitably be taken.

NEVER underestimate the arrogance and stupidity of those in power to waste money that they will never be held accountable for mis spending in the "public interest". I think back to Oct 2015 in the Limerick Dist court were an excellent example of Einstein's definition of lunacy[Repeating the same mistake over and over and expecting a different outcome] was demonstrated by the then Chief Superintendent, by losing 6 application appeals one after the other at a cost of about 5 thousand Euros a pop under the dist court rules. This was after he lost over a dozen appeals in the last two years and had even had the Garda Ombudsman sicced on him for his tardiness in issuing licenses that he was mandated to do so by the court. You would think such incompetence would be censored or highlighted?Not in Ireland! He was promoted to head of the Garda traffic corps, and thankfully retired in 2019.

Same as we have seen with customs fighting a fellow boardsie here over a wooden stock being a firearm, and despite being told in legislation that it isnt.Still went to the HC and lost, as we taxpayers were footing the bill. Funny how many DC appeals for CF stuff went down dramatically once the Dist court rules on costs came in and the Limerick 2015 wins occurred?Once accountability for actions comes into play,its amazing how suddenly the pitch is levelled.

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119334275#Comment_119334275

Here is hoping. Best case scenario is recommendations, if any are made, come to nothing.

I think the subtlety with how this is playing out has been on the side of the FEC. How many people actually know this is happening? With other such ventures it was widely publicised by the various associations and groups but this has been very low key, almost under the table carry on.

Grizzly 45

As Brendan Behan famously said."The first item on the agenda of any Irish organisation is the split!" Shall we skip all the committee forming and rules and whatnot,and just get to that point so that those who actually want to save shooting in Ireland can do so by deeds and not being screwed again by the tyranny of small differences?

Grizzly 45

I think the subtlety with how this is playing out has been on the side of the FEC. How many people actually know this is happening? With other such ventures it was widely publicised by the various associations and groups but this has been very low-key, almost under-the-table carry-on.

This is partially I think our own fault.

What other media is there, apart from boards.ie to disseminate info to the common shooter in Ireland,if the groups decide to play it sthum and either hope it will go away or could be sorted out quietly behind the scenes, as one high-ranking member of one of our national operations mooted?

Not everyone is in a club, and not everyone who owns a gun looks for shooting info online either or knows we exist. Keep saying this, we need to embrace social media and cyber a lot more. I notice FURG hasn't got a FB page yet...Probably one of the 1st things any new group or biz sets up almost straight away these days.Its contradictory I know in that our shooting population is getting older,and our younger population is disheartened by not being able to find info online about the shooting scene. So the bottom line is; how do we get more info about situations like this to the average shooter? And the second question is; do they really give a damn to do anything about it? Going by the number of applicants who did know about it, not really.

I think the consensus is that FURG has come about not only because of the ministerial choice and mysterious way of choosing two virtual unknowns and an unknowing chairwoman of firearms-related matters just for the ol gender balance required these days.

But maybe because we need a big enough umbrella lobby group to either finance or political clout a high court judicial review of the minister's actions? That could put a stop to this entire process and cause the Minister to have to restart in a more open and transparent manner on how people are chosen. That could be the big stick on our side.