Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949048#Comment_121949048

A partitionist is somebody who is happy the island is partitioned and seeks to keep it that way.

As you showed you fit the description above. (You are 'happy' partition is being maintained) If you feel it is an insult to merely describe your position, that's on you tbh. If you feel guilty about having that position and happiness, then I can see why you find it to be a taunt. It isn't intended to attack your guilt, merely a descriptor.

P.S. I know you don't do complexity, but accepting the wishes of a majority to maintain partition is not an endorsement of partition.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948638#Comment_121948638

It seems he was a grass so that might explain his luck. Pity he didn't stitch up his mate Gerry. Or was he a grass too?

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949069#Comment_121949069

I don't have guilt about it just want consistency. McGuinness died serving British interests in Ireland so therefore was a partitionist.

MON currently fills that role and is even more assimilated into the British state.

Both have done far more on behalf of the British than me!

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949069#Comment_121949069

You do realise the corollary of using that kind of language means we can call Republicans in the 26 counties Unionist as ye want a united Ireland..

So you're a Unionist then 🤣🤣🤣 *

* My point being labels are made up,why must we label people

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949106#Comment_121949106

Both of them accepted the GFA and are anti-partition and want it ended.

Try again.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948737#Comment_121948737

Effectively McGuinness, as a British agent, managed to get the PIRA to effectively surrender.

Did the Queen thank him for his service when they met?

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/the-historic-moment-the-queen-met-former-ira-commander-martin-mcguinness/41973137.html

According to this report, they had a private meeting.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949108#Comment_121949108

I really don't have any issue with what you call me Pureza.

Partitionist is a word which describes somebody who favours partition.

I am an Irish unionist by the way, no problem with that.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949112#Comment_121949112

Actions speak louder than words.

Undeniable truth that they facilitate partition.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949048#Comment_121949048

The use of the word partitionist is a jibe at poster to get a reaction.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949119#Comment_121949119

Posthumous award for services to the crown might be in order!

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949128#Comment_121949128

Apparently, the mods allow its use, despite the clear flaming and trolling going on when it is used.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949122#Comment_121949122

You are getting there. Which bit of 'they undertook to accept the wishes of the majority, while still working to end partition' did you not understand or chose to not understand?

I pity people who have to dig so deep to find a win.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949142#Comment_121949142

You tell yourself whatever you need to get over them taking the soup.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949128#Comment_121949128

Under the circumstances where we have a British SF on this island, i find it quite funny.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949148#Comment_121949148

If they took the soup, so be it.

I am glad the conflict/war is over.

I do wonder about some others on here on that. Seems respect would be given had they continued a conflict/war that had long since reached stalemate.

Or would it? Do you want to play both sides here morally?

A very conflicted position to have IMO

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949167#Comment_121949167

No it isn't. It's the charade that gets ridiculed. Being part of a British proxy government yet won't say Northern Ireland etc.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949188#Comment_121949188

Go on jh79...say it...doing what they agreed to do while still working to end partition.

I.E. They agreed to accept the majority wish which does not mean they endorse partition.

Again you reveal you would think more of them had they continued the conflict.. You taunt if they continue the armed struggle, demand they stop, then when they do, you taunt anyway.

I would hate to be that morally reprehensible tbh.

Anything for a win I suppose.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949208#Comment_121949208

You hand wave away murder, rape, child abuse etc if it's for the cause! Nobody who supports either SF or the IRA can lecture on morals.

jh79

Would love to hear your opinions on the morals of protecting Liam Adams, the murder of Protestants at Kingsmills, Claudy, Brian Stack, commemorations for a guy who burnt a woman alive for the crime of being a different religion etc.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949239#Comment_121949239

All violence is condemned, that is the standard response, but the PIRA had no choice, and they brought the British to their knees. A whole heap of contradictory gobbledy-gook that doesn't align with historical fact.

If someone condemns all violence, then they cannot (without being a hypocrite) support Sinn Fein, who believe that violence was necessary.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949225#Comment_121949225

I never did any of that actually.

I didn't support SF or the IRA during the conflict and for years after.

What I didn't do was set glass ceilings for them when I voted wholeheartedly for the GFA.

They delivered their part of the deal, therefore are a legitimate democratic party to vote for.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949246#Comment_121949246

Similar to SF in the Dail after the Dublin riots. Do they really expect us to take lectures on morality from convicted criminals and their supporters?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949246#Comment_121949246

'brought the British to their knees'

is typical blanch rewriting of what is said so he can have a go.

My government and parties that look for my vote here, support violence and it's necessity. Violence is a part of human existence since the world was created.

My problem in the north is that violence did not just begin with the IRA. It had a cause and instigation and inevitability. There were those who had the power to prevent it happening and they spurned their responsibilities.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949258#Comment_121949258

Nobody is asking you to accept anything. You keep doing what you are doing.

Bobson Dugnutt

Are SF saying the tricolour shouldn’t have been placed on McAuley’s coffin because he murdered a Guard, or because he beat and stabbed his wife?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949437#Comment_121949437

Only thing you can be sure of around here Bobson is they'd be dammed if they did and dammed if they didn't.

gormdubhgorm

In my opinion SF won't ever form a government until -

1) They give up the Republican pantomime mindset -

Stop dancing on pins for the sake of "the struggle". This includes the flag waving triumphalism seen at electoral venues, stopping this silly refusal to say the name of both states they suppose to represent etc. I believe Saorstát Éireann (The Free State) stopped using the term "Six Counties" around 1930's and early 1940's. When SF "grow up" they too will reach the same cross roads. That to me will be the first "sign" SF accept the reality of the situation visa vie NI and ROI.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/why-sinn-fein-will-not-call-the-state-by-its-name-1.4182195 (paywall)

https://1ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Fwhy-sinn-fein-will-not-call-the-state-by-its-name-1.4182195 (paywall removed)

From the above:

"In a long blog post on the An Phoblacht website after the poll, party chairman Declan Kearney referred to the Republic as the "Southern State" 

"In her column in An Phoblacht, Sinn Féin deputy leader Michelle O'Neill described the Republic as the "26 counties", while party activist Michael Doyle - the election agent of Waterford TD David Cullinane - exclaimed that "we broke the bastards. We broke the Free State" in a now notorious "Up the 'Ra" video that was posted online."

"The linguistic contortions extend to the party’s more mild-mannered housing spokesman Eoin Ó Broin. In his book Home: Why Public Housing is the Answer, he calls the Republic “Southern Ireland” - the same name given by the British to the shortlived entity which was created as a result of the Government of Ireland Act (1920) as a counterpoint to Northern Ireland."

--

2) Stop using Republican Pejoratives - A cohort of SF and SF support will have to stop using terms such as "West Brit ", "Partitionist" and so on.

https://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-west-brits-2343586-Sep2015/

From the Sinn Fein website -

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/15215

Which linked an article 1988 SDLP/SF talks -

https://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2009/SF_SDLP_talks.pdf

From the above article - "Sinn Féin is totally opposed to a power-sharing Stormont assembly and states that there cannot be a partitionist solution. Stormont is not a steppingstone to Irish unity. We believe that the SDLP's gradualist theory is therefore invalid and seriously flawed."

There was a SF McDonald Burger controversy. Not Mary Lou!

https://www.thejournal.ie/mcmor-mcdonalds-sinn-fein-partitionist-2307837-Sep2015/

From the above -

A SINN FÉIN politician has accused McDonald’s of “partitionism” for only making its new “Irish” burger available in the Republic. West Tyrone MLA Barry McElduff criticised the fast food chain yesterday after it confirmed that the limited-edition McMór burger will not be sold in Northern Irish outlets. “It is not ‘mór go leor’ because it does not incorporate the six counties. If it’s available in Letterkenny, then it should be available in Omagh,” 

The reality is there are two SF party's with two distinct polices which could be ironically called "partitionist". Which Eamonn McCann pointed out in 2012.

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/sinn-fein-split-in-party-policy-549683-Aug2012/

Yet SF somehow have to stay with the pretence for appearances that they are the only "All Ireland Party" and not two parties with two leaders, with two very distinct approaches in policy. All while refusing to say either name of any State they represent.

3) Sinn Fein needs a clear identity beyond Republicanism -

This leads on from the last point. We saw in the recent referendum's how SF tried to be cute calling for a YES/YES in the two recent Family and Care referendum's. And tried to hedge their bets by saying before the Referenda. Stating if it does not pass they would make the changes as originally recommended by the citizen's assembly. In doing so SF looked indecisive and weak. They lost any political capital they could have gained if they campaigned for NO/NO like their former party member Peadar Tobin TD.

SF are supposed to be the party of "change" "ant-establishment" the main opposition party - yet they went with the government. As a "safe" political ploy.

SF have tried to jump on the "housing" bandwagon. But the construction Ireland website paints a different picture.

https://www.constructionireland.ie/construction-news/295244/sinn-f-in-slammed-over-dublin-housing-objections

"Sinn Féin has objected to, voted against, or attempted to hinder at least 11,687 homes from being built in Dublin city since 2018, new figures have revealed."

There is now the question whether SF has missed it's chance on the housing issue. Mary Lou has promised to bring down the price of housing after the next election.

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/12/21/has-sinn-feins-advantage-on-housing-hit-a-speed-bump/ (original article with paywall)

https://1ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fpolitics%2F2023%2F12%2F21%2Fhas-sinn-feins-advantage-on-housing-hit-a-speed-bump%2F (paywall removed)

However, as pointed out by the Irish times this could backfired, even if she did succeed.

"There are about 1.8 million permanent private households in the country; over 1.2 million are owned by their occupier, either outright or with a mortgage. Very likely many of these householders agree – as some polling suggests – that house prices need to fall. But not all of them, probably. And of those who do, you can imagine some residual nervousness when Sinn Féin talks of its determination to bring down the value of their principal asset.

People’s attitudes to housing are not always consistent. For example, they want to see more houses built and the housing crisis solved. But they might not want huge housing developments built near them, as the multifarious objections to housing developments everywhere demonstrate. Sometimes politicians have managed to effortlessly straddle the gap between berating the Government for its failure to build more houses, and objecting to individual housing developments. There is not much evidence that voters are averse to this apparent contradiction; many of them share it themselves.

So wanting house prices in general to come down, but at the same time being alarmed at plans to bring down the price of your own house – this may well be the private position of many voters."

4) All Republican's who took part in the troubles will have had to have died off -

The reality is SF are never going to be rid of their narrow Republican mindset which plays well in NI, but does not sell as well in the ROI. There is too many with a lot of history and baggage. Those are not able to remove themselves from their "proud history" and it ties them to the "Republican Triumphalism". If people with such a mindset and history are still hanging around, there is always the possibly of links with organised crime such as Dowdall etc. Those who Gerry Adams would refer to as "Good Republican's" have to be no more.

The SF objective to get power in Dail Eireann will mean the sidelining of figures who are currently celebrated and lauded in NI, and the boarder counties of the the ROI. But they are caught between two stools because of it. As for most of the ROI in this day and age, such people with that type of baggage and history are not people that are good for political optics.

Quin_Dub

##Mod Note##

All,

The topic here is Sinn Fein and their prospects/options at the next Election.

Dissecting 50 years of PIRA and or SF in the North has been covered ad-infinitum in this and other threads.

Let's move on shall we?

Thank you

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949613#Comment_121949613

How arrogant is that? You won't get into government until you conform to what 'I' want you to be.

SF will get into government when the people decide, not you.

agoodusername

To go back to the prospect of them actually forming a government, with the way polls are going SF will find doing almost impossible without FF.

As things stand, they'd probably need every single non FF/FG TD bar maybe a small handful of the most "interesting" independents. Even then, I imagine that their ability to actually pass any meaningful legislation would be limited by such a unique and unstable coalition.

What would they have to concede to form a government with FF? Would Mary Lou be willing to accept a deal involving a rotating Taoiseach again? I'm not confident enough to predict anything, except that it won't be a SF/FG coalition.