LIV Golf Invitational League...... NO Political/Ethical conflict posts, see Post#2

23-09-2022 12:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625874#Comment_119625874

I don't understand how people are so convinced it will be offered OWGR points.

There are clear, established criteria that the OWGR have set down around the granting of ranking points.

LIV does meet some of these criteria:

-plays by Rules of Golf, has minimum purses in excess of $30k (just about!), player's committee etc.

But there are a whole host of them it clearly doesn't:

-competitions contested over 72 holes (exceptions only made for development tours, which this clearly isn't)

-a 36 hole cut

-a field size on average of 75 players over the course of the season

-an open qualifying school to allow players to earn a card

-a clear opportunity to progress to a senior tour (in this case, laughably, given LIV has been sponsored by the Asian Tour, it would mean progressing onto the Asian Tour. If anything the reverse is likelier to happen, with the best of the Asian Tour getting entrance to LIV).

-reasonable access for local and regional players (Monday qualifying etc.

The OWGR are also clear that a tour has to adhere to all of these criteria for a period of minimum 1 year before inclusion. LIV itself has barely been around 6 months, and fails all of these criteria. In fact, the very raison d'etre of LIV goes against some of criteria.

The OWGR are going to easily and obviously reject the LIV application, and rightly so.

It won't massively impact the very top guys who still have exemptions into majors for a few years as recent major winners, or for life or 10 years etc into certain majors, but there are guys in the middle here, younger guys, who won't be able to play in majors because of this, and will rapidly keep sliding down the ranking points meaning their ability to qualify into events on the European Tour won't exist either.

Hyzepher · 23-09-2022 2:03pm

I think the OWGR will have to concede some points. Otherwise the ranking will just be worthless.

Rikand · 23-09-2022 2:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655293#Comment_119655293

I think the liv should concede that they knew the deal when they signed up. You'll get a shed load of money, but you'll lose everything else

23-09-2022 2:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655293#Comment_119655293

No, they won't. What points do you think they'll concede on?

Some of the easy and obvious changes LIV can make (even though they've shown zero willingness so far to change anything) would be bringing in a cut, and extending to 72 holes, but both of these fly in the face of all the marketing and how they promote it etc.

The most material ones, and the ones it's hardest for them to move on, are the points around effective relegation and promotion requirements. LIV have granted guaranteed contracts to golfers. Additionally, the 75 player field minimum is non-negotiable.

Why do you think LIV should be entitled to an exemption from all of these criteria, when every other tour is forced to abide by it?

And, what do you mean by the "ranking will just be worthless"?

prawnsambo · 23-09-2022 5:04pm

The actual name of the LIV tour makes them de facto ineligible for OWGR points: LIV Golf Invitational Series. Nothing screams open access like having 'invitational' in the name of your tour.

PARlance · 23-09-2022 7:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119656208#Comment_119656208

You don't even need to get to invitational before you have a reason.

LIV being Roman numerals for 54.

Hyzepher · 25-09-2022 4:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655705#Comment_119655705

The way the OWGR is setup, now after the changes that are taking effect, are essentially reducing pro golf to the US tour. That is the only tour now where you can accumulate OWGR points that mean anything. Aspiring Pros will now have to go to USA, attend college and try and join the PGA Tour. No other tour will have the strength of field to allow any of their golfers climb up the rankings. In years to come the Majors will just be an extension of the PGA Tour as no other Tour will have golfers in the top 50 or close to it. These changes have killed global golf.

It's not just about LIV, global golf is in jeopardy.

Mushy · 25-09-2022 8:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119661928#Comment_119661928

That's a separate issue to whether LIV will get owgr points though. Like that farce doesn't mean liv should get them to provide an alternative to the pga tour.

26-09-2022 9:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119661928#Comment_119661928

While I agree with your central point, that the game of professional golf is increasingly centralising around the US PGA Tour, I don't think this is a new phenomenon, as it's been happening for at least 15 years if not longer.

And, as another poster mentioned, the solution to that problem is not to allow LIV to absolutely flout the rules around OWGR and do what they feel like, while the players in question get to have their cake and eat it too.

Greg Norman sold a lot of the younger players involved here a bill of goods, and he probably did the same with his financial backers. I don't think he foresaw the impediments he's meeting (thinking LIV would be able to just bully its way through them).

Mushy · 27-09-2022 5:30pm

I see a few players have withdrawn their names from the lawsuit against the PGA tour now, wonder what they were worried about emerging

The Big Easy · 30-09-2022 1:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119672233#Comment_119672233

The reason they gave for withdrawing (well Mickelson anyway) was now that LIV as a whole is a plaintiff, there's no need for them to be individually.

Mushy · 30-09-2022 5:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119684745#Comment_119684745

Another to add to the list of bullshit excuses so

Dav010 · 01-10-2022 8:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685970#Comment_119685970

If memory serves me correctly, LIV said they would cover the cost of any lawsuit taken by its players, but if LIv want to take over as the Plaintiff, what benefit is there for the players to continue to be personally involved? It’s hardly a “bullshit excuse” to drop out of litigation if you have no need to be there, and no wish to gain financially.

Mushy · 01-10-2022 8:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119687914#Comment_119687914

So all of a sudden in the middle of proceedings LIV just suddenly want to take over as plaintiff? And all these big money lawyers and advisors never thought of that in the first place? Excuse me while I'm skeptical that people who have been bullshitting all along continue to do so

Dav010 · 01-10-2022 9:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119687966#Comment_119687966

They didn’t take over though, they joined to the lawsuit, and SOME players then decided, what is the point of us being here? If you were in their shoes, would you tie up your time in litigation, or would you leave it all to the State backed team of lawyers? You don’t have to be a member of Mensa to come to the conclusion they did.

Mushy · 01-10-2022 10:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119688004#Comment_119688004

So LIV are suing the PGA tour for loss of player earnings? Cos that doesn't make sense. There's 2 different suits going on, one anti-competition which LIV suing woukd make sense. Loss of players earnings suit doesn't make sense cos LIV isn't a player. Absolutely wouldn't trust a word out of their mouths

Actually laughing at the notion they've pulled out cos all they'd gain is monetarily and they're not pushed about it. Tell us again Phil why was it you signed up for the LIV stuff? Lads making tens of millions **** off for bigger money and all of a sudden they don't care for the money. Pull the other one, they're absolute spoofers

Dav010 · 01-10-2022 12:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119688185#Comment_119688185

Unless I’m mistaken, the case Mickelson/Poulter etc pulled out of related to their suspension from PGA tour events, presumably due to loss of ranking points which may bar some from competing in the majors. I do not think this suit relates to loss of earnings, wasn’t that ruled on/thrown out by a US judge a few weeks ago?

But going back to your assertion that the players are bullshitting about the reasons for dropping out, Mickelson stated that as he wasn’t interested in being paid damages, he was happy to let LIV run with the suit. Seems totally reasonable and understandable, the players don’t need the hassle if LIV are going to fight the PGA on behalf of all their players. If anything, I’m surprised the other three players have stayed in the suit.

Mushy · 01-10-2022 4:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119688505#Comment_119688505

But how do LIV take on that case for their players? It seems something that only the players could get damages, how do LIV get to do that? It'd make more sense if the cases were the other way around.

Dav010 · 01-10-2022 4:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119689544#Comment_119689544

You don’t see the benefit for LIV of winning a case against its players being suspended for PGA tour events?

Mushy · 01-10-2022 4:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119689563#Comment_119689563

It kind of depends on what grounds, but if it's for personal losses (financially) of players I dont see how that works.

Dav010 · 01-10-2022 5:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119689609#Comment_119689609

It’s not for loss of earnings, a Judge has ruled that the selling point LIV used to entice players by paying them more than they would earn on the PGA tour negates any claim for loss of earnings. At the moment there may be players who want to join LIV but are unwilling to give up their right to play PGA tour events. If LIV win the case against the PGA, it removes that impediment to more players defecting to LIV. There is a possibility that damages could be awarded to the players involved in the suit if they win, but Mickelson said he is not concerned about winning damages, so is happy for LIV to fight this battle.

03-10-2022 12:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119689609#Comment_119689609

That's not what LIV are suing for. Their suit is seeking punitive damages for the PGA Tour anticompetitively interfering in LIV's prospective business interests; essentially claiming that the PGA Tour, in seeking to restrain the players or prevent them going to LIV, is impacting LIV's ability to do business.

I don't personally think it has any merits, and would think the PGA's countersuit, alleging that LIV is anticompetitively poaching his players is the stronger claim. The federal court judge adjudicating on the injunction noted that, and it has been acknowledged by certain players (Bryson, Phil) that part of their LIV contract was an obligation to try and poach other players.

I don't know exactly why Phil dropped out of the suit, but would suspect (having just finished Alan Shipnuck's book on him) that Phil wouldn't have relished the prospects of being deposed or testifying under oath about his business affairs etc.

Mushy · 03-10-2022 5:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119695506#Comment_119695506

Yeah that makes sense of LIV suing pga under anti-competition stuff. So I don't see why players would be on that case, they'd have a different case which would only relate to loss of earnings. So players pulling out of that citing no interest in monetary gain is certainly bullshit. The thought had crossed my mind about players seeing what's required and not wanting to be open to questioning.

Mantis Toboggan · 05-10-2022 2:55pm

Sneaky new development, be interesting to see how it works out

spacecoyote · 05-10-2022 4:51pm

Interesting alright. I think I saw that the MENA tout haven't held an event since pre Covid times.

For all the talk about controlling your schedule, reduced travel, etc... it doesn't feel like that's working out so well at the moment. Basically having to travel around Asia now to get ranking points, as well as the othe LIV events.

All the arguments for it falling by the wayside and all that remains is MONEY MONEY MONEY

Captain_Crash · 05-10-2022 4:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119705348#Comment_119705348

They don’t have to play MENA events. LIV have created a partnership with MENA (basically LIV events are now MENA sanctioned events) meaning all future LIV tournaments now carry ranking points.