The annual Teachers threaten to strike thread

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000939#Comment_119000939

Why would I give an opinion on something that hasn't been looked for?

Obviously, this is a tactic to inflame the debate and get people talking about how teachers are looking for more than everyone else, something that to the best of my knowledge, hasn't actually happened.

I'm not going to play along with your game to inflame the debate by dragging up things that didn't actually happen.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000955#Comment_119000955

Would you like to show where teachers looked to be treated differently to the rest of the public service ? And let's not forget that this thread is based on a falsehood anyway, as the teachers didn't threaten to strike at the conferences.

teachinggal123

Haha @AndrewJRenko your entire posting style is built around exactly that strategy!!! Take a look at the GDPR thread (where you were proven to be totally 100% incorrect) as a good example.

You, and many of my teacher colleagues, absolutely do believe we are entitled a higher pay rise than others. Teachers will be along in a few minutes to deny this, but I hear it in the staff room every day.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000982#Comment_119000982

I'm saying you're looking for them to be treated differently which is clear by your attempts to redirect discussion. Your admittance of that causes the rest of your arguments to fall as well hence trying to avoid the question.

But now everybody understands what you are trying to build your arguments on anyway, so they have already failed.

Now the question is why you think they should be treated differently, and you undoubtedly have an opinion there that you won't want to share as it will expose you further.

My own opinion is they shouldn't be treated differently and their strike threats should have been coordinated with the rest of the PS if they were to be effective, but a history of teachers thinking of themselves as special has broken this especially given their recent ridiculous demands, so much so that the rest of the PS would have very valid reasons for excluding them from any negotiations due to the damage they've done to their reputation.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119001008#Comment_119001008

Where did I say that I was looking for teachers to be treated differently to other public servants?

Are you just making stuff up now?

teachinggal123

@AndrewJRenko the vast majority of your posts are questions. Why should anyone answer you when you refuse to give your opinion when asked a very simple question?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119001188#Comment_119001188

OK, then let my change my strategy. I DIDN'T say that teachers should be treated differently, so that long rambling diatribe based on the assumption that I said that teachers should be treated differently is a pile of dog excrement.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119001000#Comment_119001000

I know you don't like me asking questions, but I'm not sure what GDPR thread you're talking about, so perhaps you might like to clarify. If it was the 'top ten posters' one, you could also clarify why Boards.ie changed their planned disclosure of personal information if I was 'proven to be 100% incorrect'?

I can only suggest that you stop making assumptions about what I or anyone else believes. It is interesting to see that you have to make up stuff that I didn't say so that you have something to argue with. Obviously you can't find enough in the real world to complain about.

Perhaps you should be having these discussions with the imaginary teachers in your imaginary staffroom, rather than arguing with me about things I never said?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119001025#Comment_119001025

Again, I know I'm not supposed to ask questions, but what exactly did I get 'absolutely schooled about'? All I've seen today is people making up stuff about strike threats and demands for special treatment. I've no idea where you got 'absolutely schooled' from?

teachinggal123

@AndrewJRenko

Lets keep it simple. Do you *personally* believe that teachers should get more than others in the public and private sectors? What % increase in pay do you personally believe teachers should get?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119001254#Comment_119001254

Which bit of my previous answer did you not understand? Let me know and I'll put it in simpler terms for you.

Why would I give an opinion on something that hasn't been looked for?

Obviously, this is a tactic to inflame the debate and get people talking about how teachers are looking for more than everyone else, something that to the best of my knowledge, hasn't actually happened.

I'm not going to play along with your game to inflame the debate by dragging up things that didn't actually happen.

teachinggal123

@AndrewJRenko so you only have an opinion on things that have actually happened? Is that correct? You have absolutely no opinion whatsoever on things that have not happened, correct?

Your previous ‘answer’ was to a question I did not ask. So yes, please do make it simpler for me. The question, yet again, is:

Do you believe that teachers should get more than others in the public and private sectors?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119001357#Comment_119001357

As I explained, Obviously, this is a tactic to inflame the debate and get people talking about how teachers are looking for more than everyone else, something that to the best of my knowledge, hasn't actually happened.

I'm not going to play along with your game to inflame the debate by dragging up things that didn't actually happen.

Is there some part of the above that you're not getting?

teachinggal123

Yes, I’m not getting why you won’t answer the simple question or give your own opinion. You are not a teacher so how could your opinion inflame the debate? You, sir, are vastly overestimating the weight of your opinion around these parts ;-)

Having said that, everything you have posted in this thread would strongly suggest you do indeed believe that teachers should get more than others in the public and private sectors. If not, I suspect you would be quite clear about this (so as not to *inflame* the debate). Not a big deal anyway … my own colleagues believe we should get paid more than others in the public and private sectors so its not a huge leap to assume you believe the same thing (but are ashamed to say it). At this point others reading this thread will make up their own minds on what you believe.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119001159#Comment_119001159

As seen in the following posts, your modus operandi here has become to avoid answering the hard questions.

IF teachers wanted compensation improvements above other public servants, would you be supportive of that position?

I would argue that any positions being taken by the teachers unions that isn't in coordination with the other PS unions (as this strike threat was) is an indication that they want teachers to be treated differently. Would you agree with that assessment?

And do remember, while you cannot be quoted saying as such, taking a position of being supportive of the actions would imply you agree with them, whether you like it or not. People are quite easily seeing through someone trying to exist in that grey area of letting others speak on behalf of them (which is usually a sign of someone not being confident in their position).

Beasty

OK, I've already set out some of the economics behind my question. If posters don't want to provide an answer to whether teachers are worth a higher payrise than others, that is fine with me

Let me therefore explore the two possible answers to the question

If the answer is yes, then why? We all are facing the same inflationary pressures. Why should one sector of the economy get more to compensate for this?

If the answer is no, then everyone should be seeking a similar payrise, and everyone is deserving of a higher payrise. Giving everyone that level of payrise not only adds to inflation, meaning everyone is back to where they started. It also means these payrises have to be funded. That is by either taxing people more, which ends up affecting everyone's net income, so again there is no overall benefit and we still have increased inflation, or we put the burden on future generations. Sure why shouldn't we burden those kids with more of the debt we have created. In the meantime interest rates are going up meaning it's costing even more to fund those payrises

All very basic economics

The solution is to keep a lid on payrises - yes everyone ends up with less in real terms, but that is because we are all having to pay for the impact of the likes of Covid, the climate crisis and the war in Ukraine. Despite some views otherwise there is no such thing as free money. Everything has to be paid for eventually, and the only thing we should really worry about is whether we pay for our own mess or let our kids and grandkids pay for it. My view is it is of our own making and we need to accept responsibility rather than leaving it for those future generations, who will in all likelihood have their own messes to deal with

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119001475#Comment_119001475

If the weight of my opinion is so insignificant, it seems strange that you and others would persist so enthusiastically to get my view on a hypothetical scenario.

Either way, as explained above, I'm not going to fall into your trap and help you to continue with this untruthful positioning about what teaches are looking for. This isn't my first rodeo.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119001750#Comment_119001750

Can you really not find enough in what teachers and their unions have actually said or done, rather than trying to pick arguments on hypothetical scenarios?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119002295#Comment_119002295

Again, it's hard to take these hard economics too seriously when they are only applied to one particular aspect of public expenditure and not to all public expenditure.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119003655#Comment_119003655

What they have done with this solo strike run and then back down has made teachers collectively look very stupid again.

If this wasn't with the purpose of getting a deal for themselves, then it was even stupider still.

That people can't admit that was their aim is even stupider again.

We do know they threatened to strike, so it's not hypothetical, as much as those slipping and dodging may try to claim.

Beasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119003655#Comment_119003655

Oh dear. I'm sorry if you cannot grasp basic economics. My comments were simply extending the logic of the teaching union to the wider population and highlighting the absurdity of their position, unless of course they/you do believe that teachers are worth higher payrises than others in the public and private sectors.

Geuze

In recent PS pay deals, there haven't been any (AFAIK) sectoral deals, so all PS get the same pay changes.

I don't see that changing.

I can't see any one group getting a different pay rise.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119003775#Comment_119003775

Where and when specifically did this “solo strike run” manifest itself? Was it just Boardsies talking about a nonexistent strike threat?

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118995337#Comment_118995337

Which in a lot of areas is p1ss poor and we pay too much for what is a poor return on the money spent. Prime example of this is the HSE

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118995369#Comment_118995369

You cannot use the pensions as an example of how this is what the public sector employee signed up to when they signed their contract so everyone needs to just shut up and take it and it is way above and beyond what most can afford in the private sector, the private sector also has to pay a good % to cover these pensions while not affording their own and then speaking out of the other side of your mouth the public sector employee also signed up to the incremental pay system and want another 7% on top of the 3/4% (which was not agreed when they signed the contract) already been given. You cannot have it both ways.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118995510#Comment_118995510

Unfortunately the 250Billion can be passed on but the interest to be paid for this borrowing is going to be spiraling up soon and we cannot continue to pass this on as it will be coming out of our annual spend.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118996210#Comment_118996210

There are less than 600 Defined benefit schemes out there in the private sector and the vast majority of both employees and employers cannot afford to put anything by for theirs or their employees. The fact is you got an increase last year, this year and next year on top of increments I think that is more than enough. Once again where do we get the money. I dont think its fair to ask the tax payer to pay more in tax or to increase already we have one of the most progressive tax systems in the world meaning you pay feck all at the lower level and it ramps up very quickly to paying 51% in arnd around the average wage and this is already punitive and is a barrier for people working as welfare is actively competing with our lower wage and those on the middle are being squeezed as they earn too much to get anything decent in services meaning its not worth their while. Then we have the issue with our debt or to cut other essential services this has continued for over a decade and now we are 250Billion in debt, interest rates are going to rise meaning just to service this debt at some point in the near future could cost us 3 - 10 billion depending on how high interest rates go up. Already we have seen services diminish in areas that are in real need such as housing and Special needs. How much more do you guys want we cant afford it. The writing is on the wall FF/FG will be no where near power after the next election as they have made an absolute b0ll0x of the finances prioritizing vested interests and not giving a flying phuck as they are part of that vested interest group..

https://www.irishtimes.com/special-reports/pensions-focus/defined-benefit-pensions-perhaps-most-valuable-asset-you-own-1.4379790#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20latest%20figures,to%20fewer%20than%20600%20nowadays.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119008609#Comment_119008609

.....yup, theres major inefficiencies in both the public and private sector entities of our health system, theres clearly too many chiefs and not enough Indians, and then theres the extractive element of the insurance industry, and many other private sector businesses involved, tis a right mess!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119008626#Comment_119008626

...once again, we ve over extended ourselves in regards credit/debt, this in turn is causing us to be unable to raise rates too fast and by too much, i.e. we re stuck in a low rate environment indefinitely, unless we engage in wide scale debt forgiveness, particularly in the private domain, i.e. private debt, this is highly unlikely, so......

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119008693#Comment_119008693

I dont know about being stuck in the low rate environment usually the ECB mimics what the FED do if with a time gap between. If they go the way of the FED we are in trouble and it is probably one of the only mechanisms to combat inflation. I reckon the UKraine/Russia war will feed into this with regards to timing. As for wide scale debt forgiveness how would that work if someone wants to go bankrupt let them go bankrupt but we need to tighten the area of bankrupcy up like Germany, you only have to look at how the dealt with Borris Becker a very high profile personality when he tried to con the tax man there. This is what we need. I find it funny that our bankruptcy laws allow the bankrupt persons family stay in the family home and their kids are still allowed have their private school fees paid along with other allowances. There was a case there were one lady whos hubby was made bankrupt was able to claim up to 9k a month in allowances from the state to keep her and her kids in the lifestyle she had become accustomed to

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-61276378

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119008833#Comment_119008833

yup, major central banks do indeed generally mimic each other, but the ecb is currently showing signs of breaking from the norm, hence its reluctance to increase rates, it knows all of what i said, and much more, it knows we ve too much debt out there, particularly in the private domain, and it knows raising rates would more than likely cause a serious shock in regards these debts being serviceable, and a potential collapse once again in financial markets, due to the increase in defaults and non performing loans, i.e. its stuck, and it knows it!

yup, if they follow the fed, we re more than likely in trouble, but....

debt forgiveness has always been a critical part of maintaining functionality and stability in our monetary systems, but we have also made a mess of this to, by maintaining forgiveness in certain sectors of society, more towards wealthier entities, large corporations etc, and debt enforcement everywhere else, this approach is now starting to collapse...

yes it wont be easy to implement such a thing, but has become too dangerous not to now, far more dangerous not to

we have to embrace rising public debt, or.....

i dont expect any of this to occur, so.....

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119008909#Comment_119008909

We already borrowed 240bn+ in public debt. How much more you think we should borrow?

Beasty

Public debt should only fund capital assets. If we need to spend more to deal with Covid, the refugee crisis etc, that should be repaid short term. €240bn is way too high for an economy the size of Ireland's and the priority should be to reduce this. Alas that probably does not attract many votes and I suspect the politicians will be unable to resist the temptation to borrow more and further burden future generations