Rights for deceased to determine arrangements

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956042#Comment_118956042

The undertaker has no say in the funeral arrangements. If there is a dispute over the arrangements that ends up in court then the deceased's wishes will be persuasive but the undertaker has no authority to decide that.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956042#Comment_118956042

How can the undertaker carry out the wishes of the deceased without a body? If the agreement was that they do a service with or without a body, then sure.

But the hospital is not going to release the body to a funeral director without the family's agreement. And if no service can be provided, then the contract cannot be completed.

Or at least they might - but you're talking about a situation where a funeral director claims to have the authority to take the body and doesn't consult with the family first. Ignoring everything else, the reputational damage to a funeral director doing something like that would be far in excess of the profit from the service.

In general, the family contacts their funeral director of choice, who then arranges collection from the hospital. The scenario that you posit is that a funeral director hears about the death and immediately and without contact from the family, takes the body from the hospital and prepares the funeral. Not only would they never get business from anyone else in the local area, other funeral directors would turn on them.

That's before you get into civil tangles about ownership and the rights of deceased's family.

The question is why would the undertaker go out of their way to exclude the family from the funeral arrangements? The service having already been paid for is irrelevant. Dead men tell no tales. There is literally no gain to the undertaker in blindly carrying out the agreement.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956128#Comment_118956128

The undertaker MAKES the funeral arrangements. That's what they do. If they have specific instructions and prepayment, who has the authority to override this?

covidcustomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118951940#Comment_118951940

Yes, undertakers do this, it's set out here for example.

On fanagans.ie website:

Your Funeral Plan

Once you have determined what you require:

• We will confirm in writing your chosen funeral arrangements, together with itemised costs
• You should advise your next-of-kin, executor and/or solicitor that you have made advanced funeral plans with us, with our contact details
• You may lodge funds into an interest-bearing deposit account at your chosen financial institution, advising the Manager that it is for the sole purpose of paying for your funeral expenses
• You may wish to contact us once a year to check if any price increases require any additional amount needs to be lodged to your 'funeral account'

Your Plan is an expression of your wishes. If at any time in the future you are unhappy about any detail of your Plan, we will be happy to make any changes for you, however small. You are also of course free to cancel your Plan at any time.

We promise that the details of your Plan will be carried out, as agreed.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956141#Comment_118956141

I've never heard of hospitals checking with families. The undertaker shows up and takes the body. I didn't get any calls from the hospital asking if it was OK to hand over the body. If the deceased gave specific instructions to the hospital to contact the specific funeral director once the person has passed, are the hospital really going to start double-checking this with family?

What would be the reputational damage to a funeral director for ignoring the specific instructions given by the deceased?

Again, people seem to be telling me this can't be done just because they've never seen it done.

Is there any specific legal provisions, or funeral director policy provisions involved?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956180#Comment_118956180

Well, well, well, thank you so much.

I guess there's a few posters here might like to adjust their positions.

Dial Hard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956121#Comment_118956121

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/health_services/blood_and_organ_donation/organ_and_body_donation.html

So, given your next of kin can freely ignore your wishes to donate your organs, what legal basis do you think there could possibly be in place to force them to honour your funeral arrangements?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956169#Comment_118956169

The undertaker carries out the arrangement. They do not decide what the arrangements are. absent the deceased's personal representative being amenable to the deceased's wishes there is nothing the undertaker can do. you cannot have a funeral without a body and the undertaker will have no access to the body without the consent of the personal representative. Where this is a will it is clear who the personal representative is, it is the executor of the will. Now people have said that the will might not be read until a long time after the funeral BUT the executor will know they are the executor. you don't nominate an executor in a will without telling them. Absent a will then next of kin have responsibility.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956255#Comment_118956255

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956250#Comment_118956250

Fanagans seem to disagree with you, lads.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956308#Comment_118956308

Their website is not an authority on the law.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956180#Comment_118956180

they can say what they like. It doesn't give them any authority over the remains when the person passes.

Eldudeson

I'll just leave a story that I know is true.

A man in his 70's, long separated from his wife and lived in a retirement estate. Had a number of adult children. He wasn't feeling well so went to the GP and had tests. Found out he has weeks to live. He went to a couple of his kids and arranged a cremation and what to be done with the ashes and gave over the funds to pay for it.

The few weeks are up, the man passed. His separated wife and other kids, with full knowledge of his wishes, had him buried in the local graveyard against all protests otherwise. A lot of people went to the church service but not the burial and the after's. It turned out he had left some cash behind the bar of his favorite pub for anyone who turned up after the event.

I know if it was me, and I thought that would happen, I would do everything I could to take the decision out of the hands of people that I don't trust. There must be some legal provision for it. And if not, some way to punish the person who decides to have the process their way and not the way the deceased wanted.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956308#Comment_118956308

Are they going to fund the litigation should the authorities refuse to release the body to them?

seamus

"We promise that the details of your Plan will be carried out, as agreed."

Well obviously, they're going to say that. If Fanagan's say, "We'll do our best, but we can't guarantee it", then Massey's will just swoop in and go, "We promise that we'll do what you want, unlike that Fanagan's shower". It's marketing bumpf.

The deceased can't do anything if they don't deliver on their "promise". They won't even know.

I know if it was me, and I thought that would happen, I would do everything I could to take the decision out of the hands of people that I don't trust. There must be some legal provision for it. And if not, some way to punish the person who decides to have the process their way and not the way the deceased wanted.

If there is disagreement about who should make the arrangements, the personal representatives of the deceased are entitled to make the decisions. 

So basically if you are in any way concerned that your family might override your wishes, the most important thing to do is to appoint an executor who is not one of them, explain to that individual very clearly what the issue is, give them a copy of the will so they have it to hand, and press on them the importance of kicking up a stink before the funeral arrangements are made. The funeral director is not going to proceed if there's a dispute, they will await the outcome.

IMHO though, there's something very self-indulgent about making hard diktats around your funeral arrangements. You're dead, it doesn't matter to you. Funerals are for the living, and while there's a lot of sense in having the arrangements done and dusted so your family don't have to worry about it, if they want to make changes that help them to grieve better, then that's up to them.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956353#Comment_118956353

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956529#Comment_118956529

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956347#Comment_118956347

Maybe you're right lads, maybe the 200 years of undertaking business, 11 separate funeral homes, four household names of undertaking, founding members of Irish Association of Funeral Directors -maybe they don't know as much about this topic as the boards posters who can't produce any sources for their definitive claims.

I know who I'll be trusting.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956815#Comment_118956815

The problem, as noted above, is that appointing the executor normally comes long after the funeral.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957069#Comment_118957069

executors are named in the will.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957095#Comment_118957095

Yes, and the will is normally not opened or dealt with until long after the funeral.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957097#Comment_118957097

but it is known by the executor. Either way you seem to think that making arrangements in advance for a funeral gives the undertaker some kind of authority after death. which is nonsense.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957127#Comment_118957127

Maybe, but it would be hard to ensure that the executor is involved before the funeral. The undertaker has to be involved in the funeral, so it's probably better to rely on them, as set out by Fanagans:

https://www.fanagans.ie/home/planning-a-funeral-in-advance#

On the more general issue, pre-planned funerals are definitely a thing.

https://www.staffordsfunerals.com/advance-funeral-planning/

https://www.jennings.ie/pre-planning-a-funeral/

https://www.jenningsfuneralhomes.ie/funeral-pre-planning/

The Hospice Foundation 'Think Ahead' form has more details;

https://hospicefoundation.ie/i-need-help/i-want-to-think-ahead/get-your-think-ahead-form/

But I'm sure we'll have some Boards posters along soon to tell us why they're all wrong.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957183#Comment_118957183

i'm not sure how many funerals you have been involved in organising but the undertaker doesn't know there has been a death until the next of kin meet to arrange the funeral.

Mrs OBumble

Where can I find the legal definition of next of kin, please? I'd like to figure out who mine is.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957191#Comment_118957191

That depends. If the deceased has arranged for the hospital or hospice or certifying doctor to notify the undertaker, they'll be on the case very quickly.

This was explained already above.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957257#Comment_118957257

and you think a hospital or hospice will release a body to an undertaker without the consent of the deceased's next of kin? and I dont mean next of kin in a catch all way I mean the next of kin nominated when the person entered the hospital or hospice.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957269#Comment_118957269

We're going round in circles here. Would you read through the thread where we've already addressed all this stuff.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957289#Comment_118957289

No, you haven't. the body will not be released to an undertaker without the consent of next of kin or personal representative of the deceased. if you have been directly involved in such a situation you would know this.

AndrewJRenko

If you read back, you'll see that 'next of kin' has no legal standing. It is a contact person, no more - with no rights to control the situation.

If the undertaker shows up at the hospital morgue with evidence of a pre-paid funeral plan for the deceased, they'll clearly get the body, as evidenced by the availability of pre-planned funerals from all the leading undertakers linked above.

Unless of course, you have some source to back you up?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957310#Comment_118957310

they clearly won't. Hospitals do not release bodies without the consent of deceased's personal representative or next of kin. Have you direct experience of this?

covidcustomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956353#Comment_118956353

What they are saying, clearly, is that if I wanted to arrange and pay for my own funeral in advance of my demise then I can, what they are also saying and agreeing to, is carrying out my funeral as I want it arranged, they're advising me:

• You should advise your next-of-kin, executor and/or solicitor that you have made advanced funeral plans with us, with our contact details

When I die, if my next of kin wants to make alternative arrangements, with the full knowledge that these aren't my wishes, then there's nothing I can do about that because I am dead, but if my next of kin wants to rearrange my entire funeral arrangements, including choosing a different undertaker, then they will have to pay for it, I am sure that the funeral director that I chose won't be bothered because they've been paid.

Would my next of kin then look for a refund from the undertaker that I chose, how would that work? I paid for it and I am dead?

My mother has hers arranged and paid for, we are all aware of her wishes, there is no way on this planet that we would go against her wishes and I think that this would be the case for the majority of people.

It appears to me that this option is based on the goodwill of the deceased family rather than the law.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118957342#Comment_118957342

Nothing you wrote contradicts my post. we seem to be in agreement.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118956197#Comment_118956197

Oh Lord. Flanagan’s are operating here on the basis that you have cleared all this with your family first. Listen. I wish you the best of luck with pre organising and paying for your own funeral in a sad effort at continuing to wrest control over yourself from beyond the grave, what I wouldn’t do if I were you is advise anyone else that a funeral director waving a piece of paper over his head can take precedence over a widow and her kids. It’s just not possible.