Rights for deceased to determine arrangements

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118968241#Comment_118968241

Good question. The last time I looked into this was in any detail before TUSLA was set up.

Having checked it again it seems I may have been wrong. This article from the Journal suggest that the Dept of Social Protection pays towards funerals where there is a family but they cannot afford to pay for the funeral themselves - this is probably something the Social Insurance Fund does, by way of emergency assistance. But in cases where there is no family the relevant local government organises and provides the funeral. I haven't yet found the statutory basis for the role of the local governments, but I'll keep looking - it may an aspect of their statutory function of providing burial grounds.

(In the UK it is also local governments who bury the unclaimed dead.)

Deeec

It's my understanding that anyone can organise a funeral. I organized my uncles funeral - I was never asked if I was next of kin or if I had any authority to organise his funeral. My point is that the person you think will be planning your funeral may not actually be the one that does it

I would say the best way is to let close family and friends know how you want your funeral. Write is down and give them all a copy.

I would think pre-organising with an undertaker works in the situation where you know you are dying and have limited time. Planning it now though for your death in 15 or 20 years time is a very gray area. You are relying on the undertaker still being in business and someone notifying that same undertaker when you die.

My take on it is that undertakers are happy to take your money now knowing quite well that they may never have to carry out their side of the deal.

maestroamado

If a person has paid the undertaker themselves it's done...

If the loved ones don't inherit they be left with nice undertaker bill if new arrangement...

When making my mother's, and then my own Advance Funeral Plans, we were never at any time asked to pay anything up front, and pre-payment was never suggested. The only time money came into it, was when they were providing the quote for what we planned.

The motivation for making my mothers plan in the first place, was because as she got older, she worried excessively about what her funeral would cost and she didn't want the "burden" of paying for it to fall on me, or my brothers. (She was very proud that way - my father died over 30 years ago).

So to reassure her, we went to the funeral director, and made the plan exactly as she wanted it, and then she could relax a bit, because she now had proof in writing of the costs involve, and knew she already had saved many multiples of what her funeral would cost!

I guess the benefit for the Undertaker is, they have an opportunity to showcase their services to more people, in a time when they are not grieving. They obviously keep a copy of the plan on record, and as I said earlier, when my mother did pass all it took was one phone call, an everything fell very smoothly into place (with a few modifications for covid restrictions). It really was a relief to not have to make some of those decisions immediately after a loss.

Anyway, I recommend it.

laoisgem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118968241#Comment_118968241

I'm perplexed why you wouldn't just contact any of the undertakers mentioned in this thread and ask them seen as how you have such a vested interest in them.

Sorolla

I think the ownership of the body is an interesting topic.

Time and time again I see separated men who are estranged from their wife and family setting up home with another lady.

When the gentleman dies - his family claim the corpse and arrange the funeral.

His current girlfriend has no say in the funeral and oftentimes is shunned by the family and is not welcome at the funeral.

There have been high profile cases of this happening in Ireland.

Sorolla

As far as I know the local credit union pays for the funeral of their members.

it might be a good idea to tell the chairman of the local credit union what your funeral plans are.

That would be the sensible way of doing it

phormium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118971193#Comment_118971193

They certainly don't, there is an insurance plan in place in most CUs but it has been diminished quite a bit in some over the past few years due to cost etc. https://www.creditunion.ie/what-we-offer/insurance/death-benefit/

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118968644#Comment_118968644

Thanks, I'd also be very interested in the legislative basis for the statement that HSE/Tusla will carry out a search for a distant relative before proceeding with a pre-paid, pre-arranged funeral on death.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118968679#Comment_118968679

I suspect that the corollary of this is also true - that where an undertaker shows up with pre-paid and pre-prepared funeral plan agreed with the deceased, that the morgue will hand over the body and the funeral will proceed on that basis.

Just to be clear, I have absolutely no experience of this specific scenario. I'm fairly sure that most of those speaking definitively about what happens here are in the same boat as me tbh.

In fairness to the undertakers, I think that going out of business is very rare, and more a case of businesses being taken over. There is a broad risk of any business taking advance payments like this. There are very strict controls over businesses like accountants and solicitors who handle client funds, and they have to keep those funds in separate bank accounts, separate to their own business funds. I don't think those controls apply to undertakers so there is some level of risk of the funds not being available when they're eventually needed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118971193#Comment_118971193

I think these are usually just insurance schemes, to cover a specific cost €3k or €5k or similar, so the CU doesn't really have any role in organising the funeral, they just make an insurance payout.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118971175#Comment_118971175

I’m aware of such a situation close to me quite recently. A man had left his wife and set up home with another woman only to become very ill soon after that. The new woman excluded his adult children from the sick bed causing them terrible distress. When he was in hospital she refused to leave his bedside during visiting hours meaning that they couldn’t see him and had to leave small gifts and things at the nurses desk.

She refused them access to what was technically her home when he was discharged on palliative care and only relented when he went into a coma. As soon as he died they got the undertaker, took him back to the family home and she was excluded from all the arrangements. They are very kind people. They accepted that their father had chosen to leave their mother to be with her. But she’d deliberately made everything so painful during his illness that there was no other option.

She subsequently engaged legal advice to try and secure at least some of his occupational pension but was very quickly disavowed of that notion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118971345#Comment_118971345

The credit union makes the payout to either the person nominated by the deceased, or they can pay the funds directly to the funeral director.

When paying for my mothers funeral, I provided a copy of the funeral director's bill to the credit union, and they made a cheque out to the funeral home, and I paid the balance. It took about four weeks to process.

My credit union (civil service) pays €4k towards funeral costs for full members (must have over €200 in shares).

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118971345#Comment_118971345

Whether it's TUSLA, HSE or the local government who does this, they only get involved if a body is unclaimed. If family members turn up claiming the body, great.

If a body is unclaimed, TUSLA (or whoever it is) will undertake a search for family. They would do so regardless of whether they have a statutory obligation to for the very practical reason that, if they succeed in finding the family, they have found someone other than themselves to pay for the funeral. So it's in their interests to find family members.

What if TUSLA etc find no family, but an undertaker presents himself and offers to conduct a funeral for which the deceased has already paid? In that scenario I think TUSLA etc will be delighted to authorise him to carry out the prepaid funeral; it will save them money not having to pay for a funeral.

What if the undertaker turns up before TUSLA etc have even begun to look for family? Will they just hand over to the undertaker and wash their hands of the whole affair? No, if only because if and when the family do hear about the death, and hear that no efforts was made to trace them, inform them or allow them to organise or even attend a funeral, they will go apeshit. Why would TUSLA put themselves in that particular firing-line? They'll look for a family anyway, with the full expectation that the family will be happy for the prepaid funeral to go ahead — but it will be the family, not TUSLA etc, who authorises the hospital to release the body to the undertaker. If, when the family are found, they don't the prepaid funeral, they can arrange and pay for whatever funeral they want, as is their right. TUSLA won't object; once the body is claimed by family, they're out of the loop.

Actual case that occurred in Dublin in (I think) the early 1990s; I recall reading about in the newspapers at the time. Man presents himself at undertakers, explains that he has been given terminal cancer diagnosis, has weeks to live, has no family that he has any contact with. Arranges and prepays for a funeral; he is to have a CofI service in a nominated parish church in Dublin. Man is shortly afterwards found dead in his flat; suicide. He leaves a note which includes the fact that he has made these funeral arrangements.

Routine investigation of sudden death reveals that man does not have cancer at all. Also that name under which he has been living is fake. Flat in which he died is in parish of CofI church that he wanted to be buried from, but church confirms that they do not know him and have no record of his ever having been member of or involved with CofI. But they will be happy to conduct his funeral, if that's what's wanted. Investigation finds true name without great difficulty, identifies family members from whom man was estranged — if I recall correctly, brother and sisters; possibly a surviving parent, nephews, neices, etc. Newspaper reports did not actually say that man had mental illness, but various details suggested history of poor mental health.

Family elected not to proceed with prearranged funeral, and instead organise their own (Catholic) funeral. No record of undertaker with prearranged funeral (or anyone else) objecting to this. Possibly same undertaker was used; family simply indicated what changes they wanted made to prearranged plan. That's speculation on my part, but it would make sense — we've already seen evidence in this thread that undertakers are happy to make changes to prearranged funerals if that's what the family wants.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118972800#Comment_118972800

Thanks, is there any legislative basis for what happens when the undertaker turns up to collect the body for a prepaid and prearranged funeral, with no known relatives, immediately after the death, long before TUSLA have even got out of bed? What basis would a hospice mortuary have for handing over the body or not handing over the body in that circumstance?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973498#Comment_118973498

What basis would a hospice mortuary have for handing over the body or not handing over the body in that circumstance?

they would have no basis for handing over the body in that circumstance.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973705#Comment_118973705

Why not? What legislation covers either scenario?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118974830#Comment_118974830

they have no rights. there is nothing conferring a right on a undertaker a body. they have to be given permission. if there are no relatives then there is nobody to give them permission. As peregrinus said the body responsible for burying unclaimed bodies will do a search for relatives. if relatives are found then they may or may not agree to let the funeral proceed as per the deceased's wishes. If none are found then the HSE would be more than happy to hand the body over to an undertaker who has been prepaid. The existence of prepaid funeral arrangements give the undertaker absolutely no rights over the deceased's remains. None.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118974961#Comment_118974961

Have you any source for this please?

How does the hospital mortuary know whether the undertaker has permission from family or not, under normal circumstances ?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975227#Comment_118975227

a source for what exactly?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975256#Comment_118975256

For your statement that a mortuary will not hand over a body to an undertaker for a prepaid and preplannned funeral of a person with no family.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975270#Comment_118975270

they have no rights to the body. no contract can give them rights to the body. You are asserting that a contract can give an undertaker rights to a deceased's body. what is your basis for that. Bear in mind that human remains are not property.

ohnonotgmail

by way of cite take a look at https://swarb.co.uk/williams-v-williams-1882/

The judge held that there was no property in the corpse; that therefore a person could not dispose of his body by will.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975287#Comment_118975287

So how does the undertaker prove their rights to the body in normal circumstances?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975313#Comment_118975313

So she wasn’t stopped from digging up the body, exporting it, and cremating it then.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975329#Comment_118975329

The undertaker has no right to the body.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118975342#Comment_118975342

I take it the point sailed over your head.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118976538#Comment_118976538

So how does the undertaker get the body in normal circumstances?

Mrs OBumble

Related question: what happens if TUSLA or whoever finds a distant or estranged relative who says "nope, not my problem, I ain't paying"? Ie do their rights come with any responsibilities?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118976693#Comment_118976693

The next of kin, who have a responsibility to arrange burial or other disposal of the body, normally discharge that responsibility by arranging for an undertaker to take the body and do what needs to be done. If the body is at home, the undertaker simply calls to the family home and collects it from the family. If the body is in a hospital, the hospital authority will want to know that the undertaker has been commissioned by the next of kin. Presumably this is done with with relatively little formality, given the extreme unlikelihood in practice of a professional undertaker trying to claim a body without authority from the next of kin. Perhaps the undertaker simply tells the hospital that the next of kin have retained him? Perhaps he shows them a copy of whatever document or contract the family has signed?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118976732#Comment_118976732

Yes, they do. In fact, as regards disposal of the body, it's mainly conceived of as a responsibility or duty, rather than a right.

If the deceased died with any money or property (and without a will) the next of kin are of course entitled to that, but (as already noted in this thread) the costs of the funeral are a first charge on that; they only get whatever is left after funeral costs have been paid. But their responsibility to arrange a funeral is matched by an incentive to do so; a funeral has to happen before they get their dosh, so they have an incentive to arrange a funeral.

What if the deceased is not only estranged from family but also penniless? Ordinary family feeling will mostly lead the family to arrange and pay for a funeral even for an estranged and penniless member. If the family are also penniless they can apply to the Dept of Social Protection for a discretionary grant towards the funeral costs. A grant is available, but they do have to be truly penniless. The rationale for paying a grant in these circumstances is partly that this is not an optional expenditure for the family; this is something they have to do.

What if ordinary family feeling fails, and the family want nothing to do with any funeral? In that case the local authority (I think) will arrange a funeral (and, as discussed above, if the deceased has prepaid for a funeral, the local authority will proceed with that).

If the local authority incurs a cost, and the family has money, can the local authority pursue the family to reimburse it for the cost of the funeral? At least in some cases, yes; see below.

Tracking down explicit statutory authority on these things is tricky. The reason, I suspect, is that families refusing to bury their dead is a pretty rare problem in Ireland, and therefore not one we have had much call to address through legislation. The legal rules on this are likely to be buried in old Victorian or pre-Victorian legislation, or to be principles of common law. I have found the Public Health (Ireland) Act 1878 section 158, which relevantly provides:

Where . . . any dead body which is in such a state as to endanger the health of the inmates of the same house or room is retained in such house or room, any justice may, on a certificate signed by a legally qualified medical practitioner, . . . order the body to be removed, at the cost of the sanitary authority, to any mortuary provided by such authority, and direct the same to be buried within a time to be limited in such order; and unless the friends or relations of the deceased undertake to bury the body within the time so limited, and do bury the same, it shall be the duty of the relieving officer to bury such body at the expense of the poor rate, but any expense so incurred may be recovered by the relieving officer in a summary manner from any person legally liable to pay the expense of such burial.

That only covers a body in a residence; if a body is unclaimed in a hospital morgue that section wouldn't allow or oblige the local government to bury it, but there may be something elsewhere in the statute-book that covers a body abandoned in a hospital. It also ducks the question of who, exactly, is "legally liable" to pay the cost of the burial. Anyone who takes on the administration of the deceased's estate is liable to do so, but what if the deceased leaves no estate that anyone wants to administer? Arguably nobody is legally liable and the local government just has to swallow the cost.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118977206#Comment_118977206

Thanks, though with all due respect, I’m struck by the ‘presumably’ and ‘perhaps’ around the key point.

A number of posters have spoken absolutely definitively that it would be impossible for an undertaker to take a body from a hospital mortuary without explicit permission from next of kin. But it seems that no-one has a clear understanding of how this control mechanism works in practice. No-one can say what legislative provisions apply. No-one can say specifically how the undertaker communicates approval from next of kin to the hospital, whether verbally or by showing a contract. No-one can say what is the clear basis for the next of kin taking on this role, or what would happen in the case of two competing relatives who both want to take on the role. No-one can point to any legal basis for being next of kin. Posters have noted previous experiences where there was no checks or qualifications of those who appointed themselves next of kin.

The only logical conclusion is that those who have definitively claimed that an undertaker who contracted with the deceased to provide a pre-planned pre-paid funeral could absolutely not take the remains from a hospital mortuary are giving their opinions, or perhaps their desires, and have no particular basis for these claims in legislation or in practice or in experience.

And in the other corner, we have several of Ireland’s leading undertakers saying, without any qualifications or references to families or next of kin, that the wishes of the deceased will be followed.

Garlinge

I have not fully read all the preceding posts so apologies if off topic. I believe that the executors of a will have the authority ( and obligation) to make funeral arrangements. The executor would take in to account different views but would have final decision. This may not be a 'next of kin'. It would be not unusual for 'next of kin' to disagree on arrangements. Are children of a deceased of equal status? Another matter is who is to take the ashes from the undertaker. They will only give same to the person who signed off on funeral arrangements. In a recent meeting with an undertaker, we were told that they had several unclaimed sets of ashes but that there was no charge for storage.