Rights for deceased to determine arrangements

Necro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118980153#Comment_118980153

It's not just unlikely, it's completely impossible they have covered every tiny detail. What date and time will the service/cremation/viking burial take place?

Speaking from very recent experience this is something the undertaker and the next of kin liaise very closely on.

I took it that the Funeral Director could act on my authority as regards the body, as I was the one who signed off on the final arrangements (literally, this time) including an acknowledgement that I was responsible for paying the final bill. .

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118980051#Comment_118980051

Source please.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118980153#Comment_118980153

Undertakers arrange funerals all the time. The whole point of pre planning is that the deceased gets to make all those decisions. You don’t have to have flowers and readings and gifts btw.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118983019#Comment_118983019

where do they derive this right from? if they do have such a right then there must be a source for it? what is that source. this is the fourth time I have asked you the same question. any chance you can answer it?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118983019#Comment_118983019

Well, you've been asked before for a source for your claim that the funeral director does have the right to claim the body, and you haven't come up with anything.

Irish law doesn't give anybody an explicit right to claim a body. It doesn't give any rights in relation to bodies, only obligations.

Obligations regarding funerals are imposed on the legal personal representatives, and on the local authority. Legal per reps and local authorities must impliedly have whatever rights or powers are necessary in order for them to discharge their legal obligations, so they must have a right to control over the body.

But no legal obligations regarding funerals are imposed on undertakers. So I don't see there's anything in law you can point to from which an undertaker could infer even indirectly that he has a right to claim the body.

Dodge

I am in awe of your patience Peregrinus

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118983124#Comment_118983124

His thinking seems to be that they have it on their website and they wouldn't do that if they didn't have that right. which is nonsense.

Peregrinus

I find there's a relevant provision in the Civil Registration Act 2004 s. 44, given the coroner a power to authorise the disposal of a body.

The provision comes in two parts. Part (a) deals with the disposal of a body on which an inquest has been conducted, which is not what we are looking at here. Part (b) is a general provision; it can apply to any body. It allows a coroner to . . .

. . . authorise the disposal of a body, whether it is lying for the time being in or outside his or her district, irrespective of whether he or she has decided that it is, or will become, necessary to hold an inquest on it.

"Disposal" is defined to mean disposal by burial, cremation or any other means.

This provision does two things. First, it provides a mechanism by which disputes over who gets to bury Joe can be determined. The hospital where Joe died is faced with conflicting demands for the body from Aunty Gertie and Cousin Jasper, or between Mammy and Undertaker Bob that Joe appointed before he died. They can tell those arguing that whichever one of them can get the Coroner to authorise them to dispose of the body can have it.

Secondly, it provides a mechanism for resolving cases where there is no active dispute but there is legal uncertainty, or the possibility of a dispute. If Undertaker Bob arrives at the hospital to claim a body without having been appointed by the family/next of kin/legal personal representatives, the hospital authorities will think "What if we release the body to this undertaker and the family aren't happy? They'll go apeshit! They'll sue the pants off us! And if they get the legal per reps on side we're in a very sticky position." So they'll say to the undertaker "go and talk to the family - get them to sign off on this". (In real life the undertaker will already have done this, but let's pretend.) If the family says yes, great. But if the family says no, or if the undertaker refuses to contact them or cannot find them, section 44 gives the hospital an out. They can (and I think will) tell the undertaker to go and get the Coroner to authorise him to dispose of the body.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118983028#Comment_118983028

It was 20+ years ago that I dealt with this - and overseas.

But both my parents had pre-paid funeral plans, which included an insurance component to cover the possibility that the actual funeral cost more. They had picked caskets, service type, celebrant (by role, not name, eg the parish-priest of XYZ), and type of service. They would have been quite happy without flowers, music etc - but equally the undertaker was happy to include extra components if we wanted to pay for them.

AndrewJRenko

Those who were involved in this discussion might be interested to see this crowd offering fixed price prepaid funeral plans, options for with / without a service;

https://www.purereflections.ie/prepaidplans

This is the company who does the water-based disposal, or resomation as they call it.

With no disrespect to this company, my main concern would be how you could be sure that your funds are protected over a long term period, could be 20-30 years perhaps?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123573118#Comment_123573118

You can't.

Prepaid funeral setups fail, a few notable examples in the UK

Safe Hands: 'No money and no answers' two years after funeral firm's collapse - BBC News

phormium

My next door neighbour was telling me last week both her and her husband have their funerals planned and paid for right down to who is to be at them! She only wants 5 people at hers, he has a few more, now in fairness they are originally from UK so 'invitation' only is not uncommon there so I won't be able to rock up to either of their funerals as you would to the average neighbour should the occasion arise.

They are both in their 80s so less time for any funds paid to go astray and its a long established company. Very organised though.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123573118#Comment_123573118

I wouldn't be keen on the water based disposal. I can't swim.

Madd002

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123573127#Comment_123573127

Read in Independent yesterday. You'd want to be careful. My parents have money put aside in credit union for this scenario.

Guy was given bill from funeral director for 2k here in Ireland although his father had pre paid.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123574318#Comment_123574318

This sounds like a much better arrangement, where the funds are lodged with a trustee company.

Provided of course that the trustee is trusty.