Rights for deceased to determine arrangements

Google left me down - hoping some kind legal boffin can advise.

Is it a legal requirement to accounce a death in national papers or RIP.ie, or can a death go unannouced once authorities have been notified as required, and the death can be ruled as unsuspicious?

Can person of sound mind dictate that no removal or funeral service should be held for themselves and that prepaid funeral directors would take remains directly to a crematorium for a private incineration, as part of a living will? As a follow up, can family challenge this if laid out in a living will drawn up by a solicitor and witnessed appropriately? Odd question, I know...

Not an odd question at all.

No legal requirement to announce death in papers / RIP.ie...... not doing so goes right at odds to our national 'physce' & would obviously be unorthodox.

You can decide / plan for any sort of ending ( departure from this mortal coil, per se) you desire...... as you say if bills are covered & NO suspicious circumstances it's your call..... of course family can challenge any aspect of a will ( AND DO) but it would be a very very HIGH bar to ask a judge to overturn the clearly outlined wishes / instructions of the recently departed.

You'd be surprised how many people do not put deaths in the papers or online anymore.

A funeral director told me that it's not uncommon, when I was finalising the details of a loved ones funeral.

Regarding the funeral, it's possible to plan your own funeral in the form of an advance funeral plan with a funeral director. You could leave this details with your solicitor.

.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118944026#Comment_118944026

Good point, probably best to appoint someone independent, not emotionally involved as executor to be sure that your wishes are followed.

Peregrinus

Your executors/next of kin are not bound by your funeral or burial wishes, and can make any arrangements they like. It's basic decency, not the law, that leads them mostly to respect any wishes you have expressed.

You can try to, um, incentivize them to respect your funeral wishes by leaving them a generous bequest, conditional on them respecting your wishes (and of course telling them this before you die - they may not read your will until after the funeral has been held). This depends, obviously, on you having something you can bequeath to them.

TooTired123

Local lady died here on Sunday and she’s being buried today, Tuesday after mass.

My point is, in rural Ireland, unless you tell someone you trust implicitly to enforce your wishes that you don’t want a notice in the paper and you don’t want a funeral, then you will have been waked and brought to the church with flowers and a eulogy from the alter long long before any solicitor or anyone else can step in to object.

Even if that person tries to insist immediately on your death that this is what you wanted, they may well be over ruled by another family member. So the thing to do is to tell all your immediate family what your wishes are and leave it at that.

In my experience it’s not all that unusual. My own deeply religious very elderly mother has told each of us what she wants and I intend, if I’m still here, to make sure that her wishes are carried out. It’s really not very difficult.

AndrewJRenko

Presumably the best option is to instruct and pay the undertaker yourself beforehand . Probably works best when the death is reasonably expected.

Peregrinus

To be honest, I think most people would be happy that their nearest and dearest will respect their funeral wishes. All that's necessary is to make sure they know what your wishes are. Stating them in your will won't achieve this - they need to know before you die.

If your relationships with your nearest and dearest are so dysfunctional that you can't be confident that they will respect your wishes, that's a problem. But it's not fundamentally a legal problem, and there is a limit the law can do to solve it. Even if you instruct and pay an undertaker in advance, once you pop your clogs you're not in charge, and neither is the undertaker; your next of kin are. They can decide to ignore the wishes you have expressed and the arrangements you have made, and contract with a different undertaker for a funeral more to their taste. Most people would deplore that behaviour but, legally, there's not a lot anyone can do about it. You're not around to try to enforce your wishes, and nobody else has the right to. (And who else would be motivated to, anyway?)

But don't sweat it. If this happens, you won't be around to know that it has happened. As I said earlier, you can try to guard against it happening by leaving people bequests that are payable only on condition your funeral wishes are respected. But will that work? You'll never know whether it worked or not.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118945979#Comment_118945979

Legally, are the next of kin in charge, or the executors?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118945993#Comment_118945993

They are commonly the same people, of course.

But, if they're not, the executors aren't identified until the will has been read, which usually happens after the funeral has been arranged, and they aren't formally appointed until a grant of probate is made by the probate office of the High Court, which takes (at best) weeks. So, pending the appointment of executors, it will be the next of kin who make the funeral arrangements.

If the will has been read, and if it does state funeral wishes, and if the executors know who they are, they can point out to the next-of-kin what the will says, and they could perhaps argue that, when appointed as executors, they could refuse to pay funeral expenses that are not in accord with the deceased's wishes. But, even in that case, if the family feel strongly about it, they can organise the funeral they want and pay for it themselves. I can't think of any basis on which the executors could, e.g., go to court and seek an injunction restraining the family from holding a funeral which is not the funeral the deceased wanted.

Your funeral, remember, is something other people will do. You can't make them do things they don't want to do, and once dead you have very limited capacity for preventing them from doing what they do want to do.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118946054#Comment_118946054

Thanks, and what about the option of pre-paying the undertaker and giving the instructions yourself?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118946117#Comment_118946117

You can do that. But when the time comes your family can make different arrangements with a different undertaker, if that is what they want to do.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118946117#Comment_118946117

You can do that of course but your loved ones can choose to totally ignore that and choose their favored undertaker and pick a funeral that suits them. This will definitely happen if you haven’t made yourself perfectly clear to your loved ones before you die. You need to have told them exactly what it is you want to happen, BECAUSE IN IRELAND THE WILL DEFINITELY WONT BE READ BEFORE THE FUNERAL. That happens in movies but not in real life, ever.

Even if you have told them your wishes before you die, they may totally ignore this when the occasion arises and listen, you won’t be bothered because you will be dead.

If you have prepaid for your funeral then the undertaker will have given you an invoice. You need to photocopy the invoice and give it to your loved ones. But that is all you can do. As Peregrinus says, if you have a poor relationship with your next of kin and you think that they will do whatever they want to do anyway, then basically there’s nothing you can do about that.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118946227#Comment_118946227

Is there not a scenario of your chosen and prepaid undertaker carrying out your instructions, and just saying 'No' to the family or any other undertaker that tries to get involved?

Dial Hard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118946542#Comment_118946542

Of course not. How would there be? Your chosen undertaker won't even know you've died unless someone informs them.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118946542#Comment_118946542

How would your chosen undertaker know you were dead, and even if he did know, how on earth would you think he had any authority at all to seize your remains from your next of kin and refuse to deal with them???

TooTired123

The amount of adults in Ireland who have been on this planet for a lot of years but who have absolutely no idea about how everyday life events like births and deaths play out in reality, is astonishing and if I’m honest a little bit scary.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118946694#Comment_118946694

the situation around deaths is a bit different. unless you have been responsible for arranging a funeral you don't really know what is involved. most people dont directly experience this until a parent dies.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118946710#Comment_118946710

I suppose. My father died suddenly when I was 15 so I had early experience of being involved in the process. In the course of my job I encounter, quite frequently unfortunately, quite a lot of people who didn’t understand that the government doesn’t pay for the funeral you organised, unless you can prove that you are more or less living on the breadline.

People are utterly astonished that in order to get financial help to pay for a funeral, all the immediate family members have to show proof of income before anything will be awarded. It’s the poorest people in fact who are the most willing and able to pay.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118946694#Comment_118946694

I was too young to know what was happening when I was born and I've never died before so whenever it happens I won't have much direct experience either.

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118946675#Comment_118946675

Exactly. And no undertaker who values their reputation is going to get into a tug of war over what they previously agreed with the deceased versus what the next of kin and family now want for the funeral. It would be a disaster for them if it got out in public that they antagonised a grieving family in the days between the death and the funeral.

There is no point putting your funeral wishes in a will. The will won't be read for some weeks after your death. It is a legal process.

And putting clauses in wills that Mary and john get x, y and z out of the estate only on condition that they give me a,b c type of funeral and so on, is not sensible. It only serves to complicate things more than necessary and can trigger contentious situations with the will if someone does not agree or interprets it different. There is so much grief and trouble over wills that they really should be kept as simple and straighforward as possible.

I often come across once fine houses and buildings falling down and getting overgrown and more often than not the back story of it is that there was a dispute over the will and now none of the family can or are willing to put a penny into its upkeep because they don't know who will ultimately get it in the end. Not can they sell it because there is a dispute and no one agrees on what they do. So it rots into the ground.

Families have been divided and people have been murdered over disputes over wills. Don't leave a wake of bad blood by having complicated wills that are open to challenge or are in any way ambiguous with airy fairy conditions about this and that.

Regarding funerals, it is all rather pointless. At the end of the day your next of kin and family will decide what way your funeral will go. You should just agree it all with them. If they do not share your views on how a funeral should be, well then, there is really not much you can do only accept that they might do their own thing.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118946869#Comment_118946869

It’s a bit weird to be an adult and have no expectation of ever being involved in either the birth of or the death of someone close to you. It’s also a bit unrealistic.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118946994#Comment_118946994

Lots of common sense here. The older I get the less and less I’m hearing… makes me weary…

The advance funeral plan my mother and I put in place for her was not pre-paid, as the funeral director advised prices can change, so the price given at the time was a quote based on current rates. Their advice was to call or email every 12-24 months to request an update. ...

As it happened, the price was lower due to her funeral occuring during the early stages of the pandemic, when no funeral car was allowed, no church fees, no church singer fees, etc.... obviously we werent charged for these as we couldn't avail of them.

I changed one detail of the plan, I changed the coffin to a different one as the one my mother wanted was no longer available in the colour she wanted. (Plus I didn't like it anyway!) So changes were allowed. (In saying that, if the one she chose was available, I would have gone with it).

I'd still recommend making such a plan to anyone though, as it was a case of one phone call and the plan kicked in and no big decisions had to be made. I've made mine already, and my daughter and brother know the details.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118948218#Comment_118948218

Did any other family members try to put their oar in? My mother has told all 4 of us what she wants but even though I’m the next of kin, I’m going to have trouble with one of my brothers trying to introduce things that she specifically doesn’t want ( assuming that’s he and I outlive her).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118949138#Comment_118949138

No, my brothers wouldn't be the type anyway, and they knew Mam and I had made the plan together, and it was what she wanted.

FishOnABike

I've always thought of wakes + funerals and the customs around death as being more for the benefit of the living than the dead. They help the surviving family, friends and community come to terms with a person's death.

Whenever I'm dead I'll be beyond caring how people mark my passing but I hope those who are close to me will find comfort in their sense of community and in whatever shared way they say their goodbyes.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118949138#Comment_118949138

Assuming your brother is her son - i.e. he's not your half-brother with a different mother - then he is her next of kin just as much as you are. It's common for there to be more than one next of kin, and they all need to agree on how matters are to be handled.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118949801#Comment_118949801

Ah it’s not really a matter for legal discussion Peregrinus, thanks. I’m fishing about for tips in how to REMIND🙄 my brother, when the time comes, IF we’re both still here, that he agreed to her wishes, because he’s by nature, a confrontational contrary person.

OP here - thanks for all input.

For myself, I simply don't want to have money spent on a funeral that could be used on better things - that's all. If people want to remember me over a few pints, they can do it in pods.

I can give wishes to next of kin, but I know they will feel like they will be judged if they don't give me a proper send off, so for that reason they might override my wishes and incur unnecessary expenses. I would be as happy to go in the bin, if that was allowed. As others have said, I'll be dead, so I won't know the difference.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118946675#Comment_118946675

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118946694#Comment_118946694

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118946572#Comment_118946572

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118946994#Comment_118946994

Jeez folks, talk about jumping to conclusions. Unfortunately, I'm very experienced in what traditionally happens with family deaths in Ireland. That's not the topic of this thread. The topic of this thread is the right of the deceased person to determine the arrangements.

Any undertaker who values their reputation is not going to want being called out by other relatives for NOT following the wishes of the deceased, for NOT following the instructions that they were paid to follow.

I realise that there is a complication around notification of death to the chosen undertaker, and I called out this specific point above. This isn't an insurmountable hurdle in the case where death is reasonably expected. It wouldn't be that difficult to have hospital or hospice staff briefed to engage the specific undertaker when death happens.

So the remaining question is - will an undertaker take instructions and payment from a living person, and will they implement those instructions on death, regardless of what other family members say?

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118951940#Comment_118951940

So, you’re dying.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118951940#Comment_118951940

On what or who’s authority will they be trying to force the implementation of the dead persons wishes?

In other words, tell us what you think will happen next in the following scenario:

Undertaker chosen by dead person to the next of kin: “I’m here to implement the wishes of the late Andrew J Renko. Here’s evidence of his having paid for the arrangements already?

Next of kin looks over the arrangements and says: “No, that doesn’t suit me at all. My brother in law is an undertaker and we’re going to ask him to make the arrangements. Thanks all the same, but we have everything in hand.”

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118952214#Comment_118952214

In my scenario, the undertaker doesn't go to the next of kin. The undertaker does the job that they've been paid to do, following the wishes and instructions of the deceased, who is really the central party of all of this.

And when the family go to the undertaker, the undertaker says 'sorry if it doesn't suit you, but I took instructions from your relative, and I'm going to follow them'.

Why should family members get to override the wishes of the deceased?

Marcusm

How does the undertaker get the body? The deceased no longer owns or controls the corpse. In law, I believe, no one owns the corpse but if an executor is appointed then they have duties/entitlements to deal with it. That being said, I think it’s a “wrong” answer as surely advance directions as to what is done with your corpse is an integral part of bodily integrity but it’s hard to get your “rights” vindicated when you no longer exist.

AndrewJRenko

The undertaker collects the body from the hospice, and produces their written authorisation from the deceased to do their undertaking thing. As others have pointed out, executors aren't appointed until a will has been read, which wont happen before a funeral.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118952577#Comment_118952577

Contracts end on death. Undertaker has no right to enforce the contract. The only thing a deceased who wants a particular arrangement can do is to make it widelky known in advance what they want and put it in the hands of people they trust to do it. If thed eceased does not get on with his next of kin he should disappear and die abroad.

Marcusm

Sounds like you need to appoint the undertaker as an executor.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118952577#Comment_118952577

And when the next of kin, which the deceased had to name as part of being admitted to the hospice (or any medical institution) say that they are taking charge of the remains and will call in the Gardai if need be, what will the Undertaker do then? You do realise that your written authorisation has no legal standing?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118952758#Comment_118952758

Are you sure contracts end on death? Financial obligations don't end - they just get transferred to the estate of the deceased.

Next of kin has no legal standing. It is just a contact name/person.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118952825#Comment_118952825

Next of kin has no legal standing. They can call whoever they like, but Gardai have no role in enforcing next of kin wishes.

https://www.sageadvocacy.ie/resources/legal-rights/next-of-kin

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118952822#Comment_118952822

I doubt if the undertaker would take on that role. You could possibly appoint an independent solicitor as executor, but you'll probably be dead and buried before the executor role kicks in.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118950348#Comment_118950348

You mean well.

But your actions may well deprive your family of an event + memories that they value a lot more than you do.

If you, or they, live in a judgement kind of town, you could be depriving them of job and social opportunities for years, if the neighbours choose to blame them for events.

By all means, set up whatever arrangements you want for disposal of your body. But leave the send off event arrangements to the living.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118953436#Comment_118953436

Maybe it's time to stop running our lives based on what the neighbours might think?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118946738#Comment_118946738

What? Lots of people think the governmemt pay for everything in a funeral? Seriously?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118951940#Comment_118951940

No, they won't. Nor do they have the legal right to. The legal right and responsibility for making funeral arrangements rests with the next-of-kin. They may choose to respect the wishes of the deceased, or they may not; it's their call. The body will not be released to any undertaker without their say-so, and there is nothing the undertaker can do to force the next-of-kin to release the body to him. Even the most dedicated undertaker is not going to break into the hospital morgue in the middle of the night and snatch the cadaver.

An undertaker who has made a prepaid funeral arrangement and then finds himself in the unfortunate position that the next of kin don't want to proceed, who is concerned to protect his reputation, will consider refunding (to the estate) the prepayment for the funeral that he will not now be conducting. There isn't a lot else he can do.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118953336#Comment_118953336

you have gone down a rabbit hole in which you imagine that legally, an undertaker can wrest control of the remains of a dead person away from the next of kin just by waving a piece of paper in the air.

Or that an Undertaker would even try to do that.

I’m glad Peregrinus, an actual legal eagle, has explained above that this couldn’t happen, but what’s more interesting to me is that you can visualise a scenario where it would….

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118953531#Comment_118953531

Most often in the case of a childless unmarried Uncle or Aunt having died and nieces/nephews having organised the funeral.

Or often were the dead parent was widowed.

They just don’t believe that there’s no fund there to cover it.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954596#Comment_118954596

Yeah there used to be a small grant but the whole thing was never covered.

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118952822#Comment_118952822

Jesus have you not read the previous posts. The will would not be read for some weeks after the death. The executor won't have any power over the funeral.

At the end of the day the fact is it is the next of kin who will ultimately have the final say in what the funeral arrangements will be. They may either respect the wishes of the deceased, or the may disregard them and do what they feel is right. The deceased has no rights at this point. They are, after all, brown bread.

I'll reiterate - it is the next of kin who has the final say.

Undertakers, regardless of what arrangements they made with the deceased can only follow through on those if the next of kin agrees and is on board.

An undertaker could not challenge a next of kin and say "oh well johnny wanted this and so eff you, I am going doing it". I would be fairly sure that it would be illegal as it is the next of kin's responsibility to manage the funeral. It would also be

Imagine the headline in the local paper "undertaker siezes body from hospice and carries out viking burial against families wishes".

Its one way of making sure you torpedo your reputation built up over generations of undertaking and go out of business.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954593#Comment_118954593

Did you read the piece linked above confirming that next of kin has no legal standing, and is simply a contact person.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118955314#Comment_118955314

That article is only concerned with making decisions for a person while they are alive. there is no mention of what happens after the person dies. However it is long held practice that next of kin make funeral arrangements. No funeral director will diverge from this.

seamus

Are you sure contracts end on death? Financial obligations don't end - they just get transferred to the estate of the deceased.

Well, no, not exactly.

The contract ends on the date of death; all assets and liabilities up to that date, get transferred to the estate.

What that means is that if you have a car loan with €5k outstanding on the day that you die, that contract ends. The €5k is repayable to the bank as that was an outstanding liability on the day you died, but the loan no longer accrues any interest because there is no loan contract, therefore no interest.

If the deceased had made burial arrangements and pre-paid a funeral director, I'm not 100% sure what the strict legal status is there. Since the contract ends on death, then the agreement is technically not binding on anyone, but the funeral director would also be required to return the payment to the estate since the contract was not fulfilled.

I guess in legal terms, the estate "re-hires" the funeral director to arrange the funeral/burial on the exact same terms as the deceased negotiated.