New referendum on dispora voting due

political analyst

The repeal of the 8th meant that the Citizen's Assembly format served its purpose four years ago - so what was the point of having an assembly about the idea of letting Irish emigrants vote in presidential elections and about other issues?!

Margaret Clarke

I’m staunchly against letting expats and diaspora vote. The only way I could come around to it is if we abolished the right to hold dual / multiple citizenships, as several countries do.

An obvious exemption would have to be allowing dual UK Irish citizenship because of GFA.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909242#Comment_118909242

Well, the fact that citizens' assemblies have discussed other issues might cause a less dogmatic version of political analyst to question his own initial assumption that the point of citizens' assemblies was to secure the repeal of the eighth amendment. Just sayin'.

Madeleine Birchfield

Until the expat community is required to pay taxes to the Irish government like how expat Americans are required to pay taxes to the United States government, I am against them voting in Irish elections.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897177#Comment_118897177

So the Dail where laws are passed "for us and by us" shouldn't check to see if "us" (the people) want the changes brought in and the laws changed??

Peregrinus

This is not really about taxation, though. The "no representation without taxation" argument is just a humorous inversion of the familiar "no taxation without representation" line. The truth is I don't particularly like that line either. It suggests that political participation is founded on a financial relationship, which I find a bit . . . Thatcherite. We are citizens, not customers. Political engagement is not a market transaction.

Forget tax. It's just one of the many, many ways in which we contribute to/participate in/benefit from the community that we are a part of. The real issue is, if you're not subject to Ireland's laws (whether about tax or anything else), why should you have a voice in making those laws? If you don't live under the jurisdiction of the Irish authorities, why should you have a voice in electing those authorities?

Even if you own no property, earn no money and spend no money, so that you manage to pay no tax, if you live in Ireland you are still subject to Irish laws and affected by Irish public policy. If you are taken away in the middle of the night by the police and consigned to a nameless black hole, it will be by the Irish police. If you fall ill, you will go to an Irish hospital. Your children will go to an Irish school. If you want to marry your same-sex partner or have an abortion or work in a regulated profession, it is Irish law that will determine whether you can do so.

None of this is true of the non-resident, and I really can't see any reason why we would think that the non-resident should have a voice in determining what the Irish police can or can't do, what schools or hospitals Irish residents should provide for themselves, etc, etc.

Basically, it comes down to this. If your welfare and your fortune and your affairs are unconnected with the welfare and the fortunes and the affairs of those living in Ireland, what is the case for saying that you should be voting in Ireland?

You should be participating in the political life of the community of which you form a part, not of a different community of which you could form a part if you chose, when you have chosen not to. If you can't vote in the community that you participate in, that may be an injustice, but it's an injustice that is magnified, not remedied, by giving you a vote in a community that you don't participate in.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909704#Comment_118909704

The notion you cease to be a stakeholder in Ireland or cease to be part of your home community the minute you leave Ireland (be it to study, or temporarily relocate for work, or through family commitments) is quite frankly b*llshit and an insult to hundreds of thousands of Irish who have lived abroad for a period of time and returned.

Seriously retrograde point or view and rather the crux of the matter.

As an aside, bumped into a French aquiantance this morning. Her and a few copatriots are car pooling to travel to the French embassy to vote in the election. Bloody expat French sticking their nose in real French people's business I suppose.

markodaly

Here is a picture yesterday of people outside the French embassy in Dublin, voting in the presidential election.

Some of the dinosaurs here should tell them all about the 'No representation without taxation' spiel. I think they will be put in their place however :)

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909703#Comment_118909703

Should we have a referendum for every piece of legislation passed in the Dail?

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910247#Comment_118910247

No, politicians generally give a manifesto out when they are running for government. If they are voted in, that gives tacit approval of their agenda. This isn't something I've ever seen on a political manifesto, especially in the main parties, therefore tacit approval couldn't be claimed. So put it to the people.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909704#Comment_118909704

None of this is true of the non-resident, and I really can't see any reason why we would think that the non-resident should have a voice in determining what the Irish police can or can't do, what schools or hospitals Irish residents should provide for themselves, etc, etc.

A simple question thus. Why is Ireland one of the few outliers in the EU regards this? As I posted above, the French in Ireland got to have a say about who their next president is. Australians in Ireland will get to have a say in the Australian election next month. Etc.. etc...

You honestly think that we are more civic-minded and more enlightened about our participation in government and democracy than the French and Australians (or the Germans, Swedes, Danes, Poles, Dutch, Kiwi's...etc..)

I think not.

The simple reason is, that we have not done this before, so it is alien to people, so their gut reaction is to reject it and come out with nonsense soundbites and the like.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909704#Comment_118909704

Which is all fine, if the Irish have left the country for ever or even a 'long time' anyone leaving in a temporary basis, should still be afforded their right to vote.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910260#Comment_118910260

That is a poor argument. I didn't see the introduction of the USC either before it was introduced.

You do realise that no party has an overall majority thus it's a compromise anyway.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910308#Comment_118910308

That was brought in as an "emergency" tax during a financial crisis. Voting for the president isn't a crisis.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910304#Comment_118910304

I think a 10-year timeframe is very fair IMO. After 10 years, if you are still living abroad, chances are you are not coming back and/or you are a citizen in your new country and can vote in those elections.

Most EU countries give you a time limit, but some have none at all, like the French for example.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910319#Comment_118910319

Yet, it still wasnt in any Manifesto. Lots of things get legislated on and are not in Manifestos. So your argument on that point is Null.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910338#Comment_118910338

It may be null, but they are currently talking about a referendum, so someone agrees with me.

I rarely contribute here. But

1) It's not tax, it is consequences.

2) We give passports out like sweets. There are millions of passports out there.

3) The president would be ok. Senate less so. Parliament, not at all.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910349#Comment_118910349

The point made was that there was no need for a referendum on this, on a point of law.

However, it seems having a Citizens Assembly for any tricky political problem is now how we run the country. From housing to voting rights to planning, everything tricky is getting shoved off the Citizens Assembly to discuss, which is kind of ironic as we already have a Citizens Assembly, it's called Dail Eireann. That is besides the point though.

sdanseo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886630#Comment_118886630

Thanks for the informative post.

I like the idea of the vote for President for the Diaspora, because Presidents are more an international representative for Ireland, typically treat the interests of the diaspora well, and, frankly, aren't involved in the making of local or national policy.

If you want to be involved in that: you should live here and pay taxes here. The rest of use either choose to, or have to.

Of course there will be the argument that many who have left Ireland because they feel the country is run poorly and should have a say in reform which might allow them move back. So a balance might be the proper solution: voting allowed for the remainder of the current government and for the next two general elections; effectively leaving no form of Dáil franchise for those absent more than 5-10 years at which point at which you are probably settled wherever you are and aren't for returning. Referenda for the same period. President for life. Local/European entitlement ceases when you leave.

The ECJ can determine what it wishes, but ultimately nothing supersedes the Constitution of a member state and ours does not allow emigrant voting.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118914184#Comment_118914184

On your last point: Incorrect, the constitution does not bar overseas voting. It is entirely silent on the matter.

And further: the Constitution recognises the primacy of EU law. If freedom of movement rights are unjustly or disproportionately restrained by either Irish legislation or administrative laws and are found to be as such by the ECJ, they fall, simple as.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908845#Comment_118908845

If a certain cohort could be arsed getting organised it'd be a great laugh if we ended up Nigel Dodds in the Aras.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Don't think he qualifies (don't you have to speak Irish)?

Gerry Adams, in the other hand, I think world get support.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118914187#Comment_118914187

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119097636#Comment_119097636

You do not need to speak Irish.

combat14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910380#Comment_118910380

exactly its pathetic the elected citizen assembly (dail) handing over the important matters to be decided by the unelected "citizens assembly" - its a disgrace

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119490269#Comment_119490269

They are just proposals from a public forum and they can all be rejected.

Strumms

It’s a bizarre referendum really.

i think the 3 year rule is appropriate.

people who have left the country 3 plus years won’t have a cognisant first hand experience of the challenges, positives, benefits, unfair elements of Irish society that impact people here…. so I don’t think after 3 years it’s appropriate that they can have a say….

the cost of running a referendum is approximately 15 million. I can think of a lot better ways for the state to spend 15 million euros.

dorothylives

The last Presidential election had the lowest turnout numbers ever, less than a million and a half people voted, so it's not surprising that they're pushing this nonsense. I would be happy if they would stop wasting taxpayer money on pointless referendums. I'd like to see the public given a referendum on things that actually matter to us. The geriatric in the mansion in the park is not value for money in my opinion. He's irrelevant, the office of President is irrelevant. Nobody who lives outside of Ireland should be allowed to vote in elections or referendums here.

https://www.thejournal.ie/low-turnout-presidential-election-4309871-Oct2018/

_Kaiser_

This strikes me as another one of those soft "feel good" items that distract the population from the rather more serious and immediate issues facing them for a few weeks so beloved of FG over the last few years.

Of course, as happened with the SSM referendum, anyone against the idea or even raising questions is labelled as a dinosaur and worse than Hitler. That's not to say that SSM passing wasn't a very good thing (it was!), but the campaign around it on social media was a rather ugly one sided thing - as these things have become generally once the Twitter crowd get involved, where anyone not vocally in support of whatever the agreed position is shouted down or rounded on.

Everyone should be free to express their views on an issue, regardless of whether it's popular or fits in with the approved consensus on an issue. Ultimately it'll be decided in the ballot box.

On this particular question though - no, I don't believe that people who've left this country to start a new life elsewhere should continue to have a say in elections or referenda here. They no longer live here and are not directly connected to or affected by the issue regardless, and as I've said, the damaging power of social media is one to be concerned about - we've already seen how it's affected elections in the US for example and the social division and unrest that the propaganda and manipulation results in. Do we REALLY need or want that here too? Our electorate is already too influenced by social media and polarised on certain issues as it is.

Additionally, why should people not living, working and part of society here have a say in policy decisions or elections that will affect only those who are? It doesn't make sense and given the potential numbers of external voters coupled with the online element, it would have the very real possibility of their votes overwhelming the votes of those actually here.

Not a good idea. This country has already given away too much control to others (the EU) without further diluting what little influence we have left over our own lives.

Sono Topolino

I am not comfortable with the idea of allowing people who are not actually living in Ireland to vote in Irish elections, aside from a postal vote for people who are working or studying abroad for short periods of time. Anyone who has moved abroad permanently should be involving themselves in the social and political life of their new homeland (subject to local rules). Accordingly, I would much prefer to afford the right to vote to immigrants who have been living in Ireland for a number of years (say 5 years) - even if they have not applied for citizenship - before giving it to an emigrant. National politics should be driven by and for the benefit of the people actually living within the boundaries of the nation state.