Clontarf to City Centre Cycle & Bus Priority Project discussion (renamed)

Effects

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908443#Comment_118908443

His same customer base have been with him since he opened, getting older, and he hasn't attracted newer, younger customers.

Yeah, we could all be dead in less than a decade, but I imagine a 90 year old has a higher chance of dying than a 30 year old.

He wants a public infrastructure halted all because it doesn't suit him. Doesn't matter about anyone else. He makes excuses about four parking spots being removed destroying his business, yet there's still at least a hundred parking spaces just as close, without a 6 lane road for them to cross.

JayRoc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908557#Comment_118908557

So I ask again: what the **** does their age have to do with anything?

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118907142#Comment_118907142

There was plenty of research into where traffic would go. Naysayers just decided it wouldn't evaporate and clog up the nearby residential areas.

And your first part is nonsense. The consulltations are plastered over websites, put on social media, put in newspapers, posted in libraries and other public buildings too. People not knowing about them is much their own fault or their representative's.

People who say, oh but we didn't' get any consultation tend to be the ones who just ignore the process and then dig in their heels when they don't like the outcome.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908569#Comment_118908569

It's the reason why his business is dying. His customer demographic means they are literally dying off.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908443#Comment_118908443

well, if his clientele are all in their 70s or 80s he needs to look at his business model.

Effects

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908569#Comment_118908569

His business isn’t being killed off by a cycle lane.

People get old and die. He’s not interested in getting any new or younger customers.

Whats so hard about that for you to understand?

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118907590#Comment_118907590

I'm aware of a number of so-called consultations locally that have failed when faced with reality of people, not all of them transport related. I don't disagree with them at all and they are a vital part but they are really not the be all and end all. Unfortunately public bodies tend to place far too much faith in them, not all of it justified.

In any project there is constant discussion and review. That works very well when all the stakeholders are on the same page. That's not always the case with the public and people can't really blame them for not paying attention to consultations or for getting up on their high horse. It's what they do sometimes. Not all are motivated to inform themselves but they still retain a claim to the right to disrupt or stop proposals and they will even if it annoys others who think they know better.

I think it's a pity that BusConnect is taking so long and that it may ultimately not get properly implemented. I also think the initial planning of it was a touch too vague and it was almost set up to be amended at will. However, even a cursory glance at it, with the mention of parts of gardens being taken tells you it had some serious selling to do. But that's the post-consultation phase, you have to keep talking to people.

I've mentioned the Dun Laoghaire cycleway and how they approached it. I know nothing about it but it sounds like they had a real plan to include everyone at every step of the way and as the designer points out it's all about engagement.

Trials are a way to nudge things forward and removes the risk for politicians and for the executive. No scheme is perfect – the key thing is that when problems arise you try to resolve them as soon as you can.

“Engage early and often.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/d%C3%BAn-laoghaire-project-could-show-the-way-forward-for-cycleways-1.4806336

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908609#Comment_118908609

Calling people names because they they oppose something you support is really not very persuasive and far more likely to make them do what you disagree with. Something like this come under change management, a very challenging issue in organisations, and people need to be brought along. My impression of councils at times is that it more about what they want and how they want it and less about what something may achieve.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909446#Comment_118909446

But it's not thoughm that's your impression, but the reality is the process was there and ignored by people who didn't take it upon themselves to stay informed.

The fact that pretty much everyone opposednto Fairview and moaning about it doesn't acknowledge bthat they were being disrupted anyway by the water upgrades is telling too, so naysayers is apt

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909448#Comment_118909448

Oh, councils are full of idiots, with an inflated sense of their own importance despite their often little talent. That is a fact. Ignoring things is human, it neither makes them less smart nor does it remove their right to continue opposing something. You keep talking to such people regardless. My comments on this thread are more generalised than specific to Fairview. I did wonder about the 21 months of it and it's not an area I need to be in but the point about talking to people still stands.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909446#Comment_118909446

I think you are missing the whole idea of councils. They are (supposed to be) a representation of the will of the people. The people are the council and the council are the people.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909520#Comment_118909520

People have low standards when it comes to councils, turnout is low and it's often a protest vote. Voters can get lucky but when 800 votes lands you a seat it's not a high bar. City/County managers often have to intervene to do important things like setting budgets, when councillors do their ideological principled thing.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909541#Comment_118909541

So they don't engage in council elections and then don't engage in consultation processes but should have a right to jump up and down at the last second when everything is decided?

People need to decide whether they want to be part of the decision making process or not.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909697#Comment_118909697

In an ideal world they would but they have no obligation to do any of this and yet they still retain the right to oppose things they don't like. I'm not saying I agree with it but it's what people do. Councils still have to provide services to them and talk to them about what's happening, in spite of this.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909541#Comment_118909541

Only 2 elected councillors in all of Dublin had less than 1000 votes. One of them was Mannix Flynn. The other was Anthony Flynn. That speaks volumes.

There's also significantly more candidates in a local election so, voter spread is lower. Local elections, don't tend to be protest vote either, they tend to be attended by those engaged with their community who actively give a **** about changes and the various consultation processes.

Again, it's a case of I don't like the result, must be something else at play

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909793#Comment_118909793

The City Manager has had to step in quite a few times to set a budget, a basic function of local government, as they persistently squabble amongst themselves. It's the same problem elsewhere too. Just reading earlier of the planning regulator reminding DCC not to use the "back of a fag packet" approach to planning.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909429#Comment_118909429

I'm aware of a number of so-called consultations locally that have failed when faced with reality of people, not all of them transport related. I don't disagree with them at all and they are a vital part but they are really not the be all and end all. Unfortunately public bodies tend to place far too much faith in them, not all of it justified.

Consultations don't fail. Maybe the original proposal failed as a result of consultation but then the consultation worked so which is it? You previously complained about a lack of consultation and now are saying how there is too much faith placed in them - again what are you trying to say?

In any project there is constant discussion and review. That works very well when all the stakeholders are on the same page. That's not always the case with the public and people can't really blame them for not paying attention to consultations or for getting up on their high horse. It's what they do sometimes. Not all are motivated to inform themselves but they still retain a claim to the right to disrupt or stop proposals and they will even if it annoys others who think they know better.

Stakeholders will never always be on the same page - that is human nature. The consultation process is there to find a happy medium.

I think it's a pity that BusConnect is taking so long and that it may ultimately not get properly implemented. I also think the initial planning of it was a touch too vague and it was almost set up to be amended at will. However, even a cursory glance at it, with the mention of parts of gardens being taken tells you it had some serious selling to do. But that's the post-consultation phase, you have to keep talking to people.

erm, pardon? Some local and national politicians tied themselves to the status-quo brigade despite their choice meaning that progress was stymied against the commuting public. However, BusConnects was and is an ongoing series of consultations so again it sounds like you're writing complete crap.

I've mentioned the Dun Laoghaire cycleway and how they approached it. I know nothing about it but it sounds like they had a real plan to include everyone at every step of the way and as the designer points out it's all about engagement.

...so now engagement is good thing despite you posting "Unfortunately public bodies tend to place far too much faith in them [consultations], not all of it justified". Seriously, make up your mind! To quote a few words that you used in your post, I'm inclined to believe that you "know nothing about it"!

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909843#Comment_118909843

...so now engagement is good thing despite you posting "Unfortunately public bodies tend to place far too much faith in them [consultations], not all of it justified". Seriously, make up your mind! To quote a few words that you used in your post, I'm inclined to believe that you "know nothing about it"!

And it has been throughout my posts on this, so I guess you missed it, wilfully or otherwise. You're just pointing at official consultations as the only form of engagement, I say there needs to be more beyond that phase and it needs to be an open door. The reaction from some quarters shows it clearly is not. People will do what they will no matter how little you may think of them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118907142#Comment_118907142

Are you taking the piss?

"The council are at fault because not everybody got to give their opinions, even though they had ample opportunity to do so" is a pretty strange take on things. I mean, what do you want them to do? Knock in to everyone, going door-to-door, forcing you to provide input at gunpoint?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908547#Comment_118908547

Apart from Kinsealy, Portmarnock, Malahide, Baldoyle, Sutton, Howth.......

magicbastarder

the problems with the likes of busconnects and projects like that is that usually, the people who benefit live in a different area to the people affected by the infrastructure works.

so apart from the issue of disgruntled people shouting louder than people in favour of a project, a councillor will not listen to the feedback of the people who benefit, because they're well outside his or her electoral area; but the people who will have to live with the construction *do* live in their electoral area.

and you end up with the situation where councillors, pretty much by default, stick their oar in in a destructive rather than constructive sense.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909942#Comment_118909942

People commute from an awful lot further out than those suburbs but not via Fairview - that was the previous posters point. Also they're well served by buses and trains, especially in terms of anyone travelling through Fairview.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909942#Comment_118909942

None of them are distant all easily cycling distance to city centre apart from maybe Malahide being a bit of a stretch.

Anyway to the people giving out about these works, how did you ever expect segregated cycle lanes and upgrades to the realm to be done without any interruptions? The interruptions aren't even that bad, a few extra minutes coming out of town in Fairview is all that seems to be occurring. Big deal.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909541#Comment_118909541

Very few areas have councillors elected on that little. Lowest quota on DCC was over 1100 and most areas were well over 2000.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909942#Comment_118909942

as i pointed out earlier in the thread, these are all approx 12km or less from fairview. sutton is less than 10m from fairview, and 11km from busaras. the considerable majority of the population of that section of dublin (say east of the M1/port tunnel) live within 10km of the city centre. probably half an hour on a bike for those at the full 10km stretch.

i wouldn't fancy cycling out the malahide road past kinsealy on a winter's night though as my commute.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909942#Comment_118909942

Kinsealy is a sparsely populated rural area. The other areas are not distant, they are certainly not a Navan style exurb. They are rail connected suburbs

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909446#Comment_118909446

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909472#Comment_118909472

It’s a bit rich to be complaining about name calling and then tell us how the Council are full of idiots.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910108#Comment_118910108

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910235#Comment_118910235

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910439#Comment_118910439

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910464#Comment_118910464

They are suburbs, served by Fairview.

I never claimed theywere too far to cycle, I was pointing out that they exist, when the previous poster claimed they didn't. I also never mentioned how heavily populated they are, though I'm unsure how that factors into the argument. It's still a suburb, and dismissing the valid concerns and views of such people will mean your project (ANY project) is doomed to fail. Anything further out than Coolock / Kilbarrack isn't really feasible on a bike as a commute for 90%+ of people, it's 45 mins to Clarehall on a bike from O'Connell St for a competent cyclist.

Using Navan as a benchmark for whether somewhere qualifies as a suburb or not is absolutely ludicrous, though.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909720#Comment_118909720

And the council has the right to completely ignore them.

That's not always the case with the public and people can't really blame them for not paying attention to consultations or for getting up on their high horse. It's what they do sometimes. Not all are motivated to inform themselves but they still retain a claim to the right to disrupt or stop proposals and they will even if it annoys others who think they know better.

I can absolutely blame them, why wouldn't I? I'm not refuting their right to have an opinion but they are 100% to blame for not engaging in a process despite ample opportunity then then trying to frustrate the result of that process. Selfish is about the kindest word I can think of for it.

magicbastarder

it's 45 mins to Clarehall on a bike from O'Connell St for a competent cyclist

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED

it's 8km, google suggests a 30min cycle. a 'competent' cyclist could do it faster than that (i was doing 19.5km in 50mins before the plague)