Cork to Limerick rail improvements

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121582034#Comment_121582034

It won't be agricultural forever. Trying to build houses first and facilities second is what got us in the shtty situation we are in.

Whare exactly is the Ballysimon train going that you know it won't be near any roads ?

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121582034#Comment_121582034

You said we shouldn't build stations if they don't provide utility to current communities. I said we can justify new stations if they will serve future high density development. It's a standalone point about planning ahead.

You're focusing on how useless the new stations are to Limerick right now, which is fair, but you're ignoring the potential it would create.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121582258#Comment_121582258

I'de understand the argument against if it was an either or situation but public transport is being invested in across the board so I don't see a massive downside that would scupper this.

bk

I do worry that there are no firm plans or strategy (or planning rules to back it up) on how new commuter rail towns are to be built.

This may have changed since, but a few years ago I’m aware to a developer bought up a lot of land close to where Blarney station was meant to be built and he was planning to build a sea of regular detached and semi detached homes around it. Not dense high apartment buildings etc.

I’d genuinely fear that built it and they will come thinking will lead to a horribly missed opportunity.

I believe all the county councils need to put a real plan in place backed up by government support and planning zoning and rules. Identify where new rail stations and commuter towns will go and then designate the areas around them for the development of new commuter towns built with high density apartment buildings, etc. Similar to the SHD’s in Dublin, which despite all their flaws, did at least attempt to deliver proper planned commuter towns, including shops, schools, gyms, bars, etc. along with dense housing.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121582374#Comment_121582374

Ballysimon won't be a commuter town though. It will be a suburb with a station the way the city is growing.

Some of the midlands stations are starting to show the right kind of growth around stations too.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121582374#Comment_121582374

100% agree with this, especially the final paragraph. The identification of "housing development zones", with public transport and all of the other social and infrastructural facilities to be provided in a timely manner, should be mandatory to reduce sprawl, ribbon development and one offs. Sadly, where housing is concerned, the local authorities responsible for the greater Limerick City area have the worst planning track record in the country, and nothing suggests that this has or is changing.

For many years, this country suffered from "sewage led development". Builders looking to develop any kind of dense housing faced a binary situation, if a property had access to a main sewer they were in with a good chance, if it didn't have that was the end of it. So many housing estates were located on the basis of sewer availability. I'm not sure that "transport led development" is much better to be honest. Myross is the wrong location for significant housing development for many reasons, unless an awful lot changes. As it stands, with no other context changes, it seems to me to be a thoroughly stupid location for Limerick's first (and only) commuter rail station. A single commuter rail station is bad enough, locating it in Moyross is plain daft.

Commuter rail works in Dublin because it has the density to make it viable and the lines and stations are located in places where people need to go. It also works as a concept in the greater Cork area, because it proposes to leverage the existing track connecting several large towns (Mallow, Midleton, Cobh) and underpins significant future housing development already envisaged for Carrigtwoohil and Monard/Blarney. The existing traffic volumes, together with those envisaged for the medium term greatly help achieve viability. There is no such vision for Limerick that I am aware of, nor is there any clear route to building a viable commuter rail network based on the current lines and population patterns.

And in any event, without major strategic planning, its difficult to see the Limerick to Limerick Junction line having any great role.

breezy1985

Speaking of the Cork to Limerick line. One massive improvement would be a few screens in Mallow.

Never have I seen a multi platform station with absolutely no live screen.

spacetweek

At first I thought Moyross, with its long distance via rail to Colbert, was a good location for commuter rail. But in Google Maps I'm seeing that as part of the regeneration of Limerick council estates, most of the council housing has been demolished. I believe this work started in 2000 originally so it's incredible that it's still not done and I don't see any new stuff being built. So definitely not a good location for a station then. In fact I'd question if Moyross was ever a good location for anything to be built, it's real "Let's put the poor people on the edge of the city out in the sticks where they have no facilities" stuff.*

In fact it's questionable whether Limerick is big enough for commuter rail. No one gets on a commuter train and gets off it again 4 minutes later. Even Ballysimon, which is a better location, is only 4 km to Colbert and would require an SDZ to be built there too. But first you'd have to establish a Limerick Commuter Rail system with its own pricing structure - no one is going to pay 5 euro each way to make that train journey.

*The same crack seems to be going on Southill and Ballinacurra. Demolish all the council houses but don't build new ones.

gjim

Yes it's a question of size also - 4 or 5km is way too short for commuter heavy rail. Most heavy rail commuter/S-Bahn/DART type systems serve distances of at least 25km/30km and in some cases over 100km (some German systems) - wikipedia gives a very broad 15km to 200km range.

I've stared at Limerick's rail alignments long enough trying to think of a way to use them for a useful commuter service but have never managed to come up with anything that made sense. The fact that the curve from Colbert to the old Foynes line was removed years ago would mean a double reverse for any service to include both Colbert and any stations added to the west. Besides the run between Colbert and Ballysimon, all the alignments are single track which would mean say a 10km route at an average 30km/hour speed (typical for heavy rail commuter) would mean a maximum frequency of 1 service every 40 minutes. This just isn't going to cut it, particularly as Colbert is at the edge of the city (like Hueston) and it's 10 minutes walk to O'Connell St. which would be added to the wait time for the train as well as the walk at the other end.

Happy to be proven wrong if anyone else wants to take a crack at describing some sort of viable commuter service utilising these alignments.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121583539#Comment_121583539

Moyross was a good location because it was mostly meant to ease overcrowding in historic areas like Kileely and Thomondgate. It also had excellent transport links for a long time which slowly got eroded and only got a lease of life in 2020 with the return of 15min buses on the 303.

A problem on the Northside is buses only really go to town. None go to UL or UHL, any of the industrial estates etc.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121584523#Comment_121584523

Double track would a minimum requirement for a commuter line, so 40minute frequency is not a reason to oppose it. Passing loops at a minimum would increase capacity significantly. Can they not just reinstate that other loop? No major developments in the way, but I'm only judging that from Google Maps...

Shannon Airport, Shannon Town, Bunratty, Cratloe, Moyross, Canal Bank, Garryowen, Galvone, Colbert. A route like this combined with well connected Bus routes at each station would act as the back bone of a network. Buses still doing the hard work, but a central line acting as a frequent, fast and high capacity spine.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121584523#Comment_121584523

I've stared at Limerick's rail alignments long enough trying to think of a way to use them for a useful commuter service but have never managed to come up with anything that made sense.

As I said before, the only way to make a commuter line from the current network is a tunnel which makes Colbert into a through station rather than just a terminus.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121582374#Comment_121582374

Your last paragraph is a County Development Plan.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121585229#Comment_121585229

No major developments? It's a single line between housing estates all the way from Corbally to the junction with the main line. There is no room for double tracking, passing loops or stations. The idea of commuter services on this line is nonsense.

Also Garryowen is nowhere near the line (it's not where google maps says it is) and where I assume you mean when you say Galvone, is less than a kilometer from Colbert.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121585626#Comment_121585626

The vast majority of the line is green fields and undeveloped land on one side. There are narrow sections for sure, but I think you are overestimating how much space you need for 2 lines.

At Landsdowne station in Dublin, it's 15m wide including platforms, with developments right up alongside. The majority of the lines in Limerick have wide tree lines either side of the single track. Definitely room for double track.

It's 1.5km from the entrance to Colbert to the where the Ennis line breaks North from the mainline. The idea with a city centre commuter line would be stops at least every 1km.

Hibernicis

With all this fanciful talk of commuter rail for Limerick this is starting to sound like that daft WRC thread

Cookiemunster

Look, I actually live in the area and I'm telling you that you're talking nonsense. The line is less than 10m wide at multiple pinch points and Google maps does not show the ground conditions. The sections of green field in that area are not long enough for a loop either. It's not possible to widen the track between Corbally and the main line junction without CPOing hundreds of back gardens and widening multiple bridges, embankments and cuttings. It's not cost effective and wont happen.

And as has been said many times before, the city center would not be a trip generator for this line. People from Corbally mainly want to move to Plassey or to Raheen. This line would be useless to them.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121590508#Comment_121590508

No in fairness I take your points. There are pinch points for sure and I acknowledge the difficulties with Colbert and the wide loop around the north of the city.

However I do think you're overestimating the limitations on the line. And ignoring the potential for denser developments around new stations.

Cookiemunster

I'm not ignoring anything. I live in the area and know the ground. Denser developments are not going to happen along the line from Corbally in. The only possibility of this happening is the LDAs Colbert Quarter, which is to be built around the station anyway and doesn't need commuter services into the city.

The line is useless for the main trip generators on that side of the city to UL/Plassey/Annacotty, no matter what developments spring up. Therefore it's not viable as a commuter line.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121590884#Comment_121590884

Plenty of areas ripe for denser development all along the line. This is before you consider the benefit to areas west of the Shannon including Moyross, Cratloe, Bunratty, Shannon Town, Shannon Airport.

hans aus dtschl

Yeah I'd say Raheen (Crescent/Mungret and Patrickswell/Ballycummin) is a more likely potential commuter system. Still very unlikely though. Colbert is the problem as everyone is saying. I don't see that getting sorted for a long time. Limerick is far to small to justify tunelling. Unfortunately.

Cookiemunster

The Parkway Shopping Center, The Limerick One Retail Park and an in use business park are not ripe for development.

Nor are Kilmurray Park (the only green are in Garryowen), Richmond RFCs ground or St Patricks GAA ground.

The Canal Bank has had SHD permission refused twice.

The area around Kings Island is a flood plain, and will never get planning for residential.

You are looking at a map with no idea of actual situation on the ground. The line doesn't pass any large areas of employment, so would not attract commuters. Drawing lines on maps and circling green areas doesn't make something viable. Your ideas are divorced from reality.

Also,

The people of Moyross will be better served by BusConnects.

Sixmilebridge residents are already have a station on the line.

Shannon Town and Airport aren't getting a rail spur in the next 50 years. The demand isn't there and is currently more than covered by the 50+ busses a day between Limerick and Shannon.

Bunratty is on the N18 and nowhere near the rail line and has a stop on the Limerick Shannon bus route.

Anyways this has nothing to do with the Cork to Limerick line, so I'll leave it there.

gjim

Everything Cookie is saying is true. And I guess the reason it makes sense to me is that I also lived in the area in a previous life and looking at google maps is deceptive - particularly the existence of marshes/floodplains isn't clear. Or, for example, the suggestion of a stop at Canal Bank may look reasonable from an arial perspective but its catchment would be absolutely minuscule.

Heavy rail systems are relatively expensive to run and are very expensive to build infrastructure for - "double tracking" and "extension to Shannon airport" roll off the tongue easily but would be horrendously expensive. I don't think turning up noses at buses or BRT-light type systems is helpful for Limerick - the new bus connects plan is actually very well thought out I think and I expect will be a big success as it provides links between the places people actually want to go. I'm not a fan of the double-decker bus format - long term I'd like a move to single deck buses with multiple doors and road-side tag on/off which would support even higher frequencies without bunching and improve accessibility/reduce journey times - but this is certainly a fine start.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593173#Comment_121593173

well no, rail infrastructure is not hugely expensive to build for the most part.

building tunnels, sure, but that is the case for road tunnels also.

rail is also not expensive to run in the great scheme of things, it just looks so, just like the rail infrastructure claims, because people have been conditioned to believe it while spending large amounts of money on certain non-intercity motor way schemes is saw as cheap even though it wasn't in reality.

the reason people turn their noses up at buses is simple, people see that in some cases they are not being used or even suggested as a genuine suggestion, but as a way to get out of building rail and tram infrastructure, and that is not without legitimate precedent, we only need to look at luas and the dart.

as for BRT/BRT light, again the reason people turn their noses up at it is because ultimately it's sort of pointless when you look at it, as you could get similar by just chucking the cars out of the cities and give full priority to existing buses without having to build any infrastructure.

but even then that only works for the low lying fruit services that require something frequent but don't have enough for light rail.

single deckers are a capacity cut as you aren't getting long buses or bendy buses in ireland, been there and done it and it didn't work.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591969#Comment_121591969

Yes indeed the only green area in Garryowen.... I guess the 15 acres of Kilmurray Park, with not a single tree in sight, must be the highlight of the area.

Yes a flood plain, fair enough. It's a shame human engineering has not progressed to the level of building a wall. Maybe the Dutch can advise....

As you say, veering well off topic so I'll stop.

L1011

Walls don't fix flooding, they move it. Realistically flood plains that remain are exceptionally low down the list of what'll be acceptable to build on.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593645#Comment_121593645

This just comes across as a belief that that Ireland has nothing to learn from how the rest of the world does public transport.

Besides the UK - the entire rest of the world over the last half century has abandoned the double-decker in favour of single and articulated buses. But we did an experiment in Ireland a few decades ago and proved to ourselves that "it doesn't work" 🙄 so that's the answer and we can just wait for the Swiss, Dutch, Germans, French, etc. to realise the error of their ways. We don't need to be curious about why they determined to switch because "been there and done it".

Different public transport modes have different properties that make the suitable for different applications. The best public transport systems in the world are that way because they understand the properties, costs, benefits of the different public transport modes and so deploy them appropriately. We Irish aren't the first in the world to grow public transport infrastructure.

For example, if you think that providing a useful heavy rail commuter service is "not expensive" in a city like Limerick, it suggests you don't understand how this type of commuter public transport is typically deployed successfully around the globe. RMTransit's youtube video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5p6mClrjFY&t=54s - is worth a watch where he looks at different implementations of the concept. The video will explain why the crappy alignments in Limerick are never going to provide such a service.

The poster Cookiemunster lives in the very area, I spend time there - have family there, but you insist that a heavy rail based solution is what is "wanted" in Limerick despite us telling you that it isn't - it would do nothing to alleviate congestion in Limerick - because it wouldn't bring people to where they want to go. Hibernicis is right - this is really starting to sound like that daft WRC to Sligo thread.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594663#Comment_121594663

realistically there is nothing daft about the WRC or the discussion around it but that's for another thread, the case for it is clear so there really isn't anything left to discuss or do but just get on and reopen it.

the swiss and germans ETC engaged in a lot of rebuilding after WWII so their streets are suitable for articulated buses if that is what they want.

irish cities on the other hand just aren't suited to it and the expense to make them so would nearly pay for light rail anyway.

Hibernicis

If there’s an infrastructure mod with 5 mins to spare in the house could they set up a thread for “Limerick Commuter Rail Fantasy Nonsense” and allow this thread to revert to focussing in the real issue of “Limerick to Cork (!) Rail Improvements” please and thanks

Mod edit: You can start such a thread yourself. However do not include 'fantasy nonsense' in the title.

hans aus dtschl

There's merit to talking about Limerick commuter lines, but it's a very different thing to "Cork to Limerick". I'd hope "Cork to Limerick" would be fast and mostly direct, and I have no problem with a Limerick commuter system just wouldn't want the two to be the same thing.