Cork to Limerick rail improvements

Paddico

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121444761#Comment_121444761

Oola is 3 miles from Limerick Junction and has a population of 200. No need for any stop between Lmk and LJ for a Cork train apart from the new Ballysimon one

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121461799#Comment_121461799

Didn't realise it was that close.

I wasn't talking about a stop for a "Cork train" though. The idea of a stop in one of the villages would be to commute in to Limerick and would need to involve planning to grow that village which isn't in the government plans just something I would love to see.

Development of Limerick Junction as a place to live and commute without needing to drive would also be welcome in my mind.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121462032#Comment_121462032

Limerick is a small city with loads of land around it to expand, there's no need to be building new commuter towns 30km away (where, station or no station, everyone would own a car).

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121462227#Comment_121462227

Ya really no need to dwell on it too much. It's a fantasy of mine that is under no consideration from IE or government.

Last thing Limerick needs is to expand out though. Expand up and increase density in the centre is the key.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121452304#Comment_121452304

I've had people refuse to move with my name above the set let alone just a seat res number for the frequent times they don't show the damn things. There is no enforcement

Geuze

AFAIK, the line from LJ to Limerick is part of the TEN-T network?

So it will have to have a linespeed of 160 kph by 2040, see below.

Does it have that linespeed now?

Does all of the Cork mainline have speeds?

https://transport.ec.europa.eu/news-events/news/provisional-agreement-more-sustainable-and-resilient-trans-european-transport-network-brings-europe-2023-12-19_en

Agreed vision for European transport infrastructure

The revised TEN-T will set mandatory targets:

• Passenger railway lines on the TEN-T core and extended core network shall allow trains to travel at 160 km/h or faster by 2040.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513646#Comment_121513646

I think you forgot to highlight an important word in the quote here:

Passenger railway lines on the TEN-T core and extended core network shall allow trains to travel at 160 km/h or faster by 2040.

The word allow is important here.

The Cork to Dublin line already allows for line speeds of 160km/h, of course there can be speed restrictions in place that mean slower speeds in places, but that is why the word allow is there. Overall the Cork line already meets this requirement. Limerick I think is 100 or 110km/h

LXFlyer

Line speed from Limerick to Killonan Junction is 60 mph (95 km/h) and Killonan Junction to Limerick Junction is 70 mph (110 km/h), subject to speed restrictions where appropriate.

Munurty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513646#Comment_121513646

LJ to limerick is listed as core rail freight line but not as a core rail passenger line. I don't think it is included in the 160km/h targets.

https://transport.ec.europa.eu/document/download/ff77d210-e40a-4765-805f-ac88e3aba460_en?filename=TEN-T-revision-2023-annex-3.pdf

Cookiemunster

Even if it's not included, if it does get double tracked it will more than likely have the ability to run 160km/h trains.

KrisW1001

Yes, it would be very difficult to justify passenger rail infrastructure spending of this scale that cannot allow at least 160 km/h operation afterwards; a design speed of closer to 200 oon the straighter sections would be more like it, if the plans to provide more direct Cork-Limerick services are anything more than hot air.

The terrain shouldn't be a barrier to higher running speed here: the current line is basically a gently curving line across a flat plain.

goingnowhere

The medium term plan is for 200kph on Dublin Cork

With the exception of Curragh, Portarlington and North Cork the alignment is already good for 200kph, there are restrictions around Thurles/Limerick Junc/Mallow but as you are stopping there anyway they are no factor

Poxyshamrock

Does anyone have an update on the double tracking of Limerick-Limerick Junction? Will we see it happen in 2024?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561050#Comment_121561050

I don’t think it has even been submitted for funding yet.

Cookiemunster

Yeah, it's years away from construction.

hans aus dtschl

Some of the delays at LJ for Cork-Limerick services are still very unreasonable.

Even without double-tracking, would it be possible to just get more frequent trains on the line?

For instance:

05:40 Kent departure, 50 minutes wait at LJ

20:25 Kent departure, 53 minutes at LJ

Limerick74

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565173#Comment_121565173

Pity it's not part of the Pathfinder Programme as it would be open in 2025 like Moyross Station.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565261#Comment_121565261

They won't lay on a train for the relatively very small number of people going Cork to Limerick at those times. Those trains are timed to link in with the ex-Heuston trains.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566109#Comment_121566109

Makes sense, but seems a shame.

Between that and the inability to do a full Cork/Galway business commute trip, it looks like they're currently missing an reasonably easy win. The N20 is still bad, so a bit of better scheduling on the rail network might coax a few more people onto the train instead of driving. I'd love to be able to do work to/from, rather than driving. I find the Bus is difficult to do work on.

Limerick74

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566109#Comment_121566109

They could at least show show some initiative (especially for the early morning departure from Cork) and maybe people would start using the Cork - Limerick service. There is sufficient capacity on Lim - LJ line for that now.

LXFlyer

The train that operates the 06:10 Limerick/Limerick Junction then goes to Thurles to operate the 07:45 Thurles to Limerick commuter, so it’s not available.

The next train is the 06:55 ex-Limerick which operates a new connection out of the 06:00 Heuston-Cork back to Limerick from the Junction at 07:31.

You would need another train, and another driver to drive it and I suspect the latter are in short enough supply, as indeed are physical trains first thing in the morning - the entire Limerick fleet is deployed.

Pathing would be tight as there are two trains out of Limerick to Limerick Junction within 15 mins of one another at 06:40 and 06:55.

The evening one would need an extra return working between Limerick Junction and Limerick.

Red Silurian

We are supposedly building a motorway from Croom to Cork. Building a railway line beside the motorway as far as Charleville and connecting to the Cork line there is surely the most obvious solution if we want to promote rail travel between Limerick and Cork?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566700#Comment_121566700

They have already ruled that out.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566109#Comment_121566109

I know that's the case but I really wish they would add that last connection even if it's just for a few people. It's a balls of a wait and the train before it is very early to be the last proper train between Limerick and Cork.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566403#Comment_121566403

I think we're at cross-purposes to a degree. I absolutely realise that there are real-world driver/stock limitations to what they can do. I was wondering if there were technical engineering limitations in terms of the line.

And if it's just a case of needing more stock and drivers, then surely that process could be started now ahead of any major engineering works on the line? It just seems like such a simple limitation that you can't get city-to-city in Galway to Cork before the start of business. And it seems like a real problem to leave people in LJ for 50 mins. It's not a nice spot to be waiting, or at least it wasn't the last time I had to do it.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566892#Comment_121566892

Well it’s worth understanding why things are the way they are.

It isn’t a simple fix, as there are neither the trains nor the drivers to do it, and it would be a tight pathing between Dromkeen and Killonan even if there were.

To deliver real improvements you need extended double track particularly between Killonan and Dromkeen.

But there have been no moves to secure funding for this yet as far as I am aware.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566774#Comment_121566774

I believe it but it is silly of them. Going via LJ means the best time they can do the 100km from Colbert to Kent is 1h50m - at which speed I might as well drive my own metal box than be stuck on one with others

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566993#Comment_121566993

Not sure how you work that out, a direct Limerick-Cork train would take 1:25 or so at present (with 3 stops), not 1:50.

There’s scope to improve on that.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561050#Comment_121561050

No update and no chance of it happening in 2024. And it may not even be double tracking, it could simply be the provision of an additional passing loop or two.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566042#Comment_121566042

There isn't a snowballs chance in hell that Moyross Train station will open in 2025.

These two projects were bundled and Atkins were commissioned in November 2022 to provide the first step in respect of each of them, specifically (1) to identify a preferred location and option for the Moyross station and (2) to review options to enhance capacity on the Limerick-Limerick Junction route. The report from Atkins was due to be completed in the first half of 2023. Nothing has been heard of this since. Nothing. NADA. Zilch.

It is theoretically possible that the Limerick-Limerick Junction route capacity enhancement could be undertaken as an enginering work, especially if the recommendation is to add one or more passing loops rather than double tracking the full length of the line, thus dodging the need for planning/railway order and to some extent fast tracking the work. So there is a possibility that if the Atkins report was available, and if a lot of ifs, buts and maybes fell the right way, and if there was some quick decision making and fund allocation by Iarnrod Eireann, the NTA and DOT, and if neither planning permission nor a railway order was required, and if there were no further intervening variables, objections, injunctions, or appeals, then the Limerick-Limerick Junction route capacity enhancement might just be complete by the end of 2025. Personally, with all those "ifs", I wouldn't be putting too much money on it.

There is no chance of a station being built in Moyross, with all the additional works (car parking, access roads, CPOs etc) without planning and therefore zero chance that that will be complete in 2025. At the rate it's progressing, they would be lucky to get started on the project in that timeframe.

The easiest way to reduce the time taken to travel by train from Cork to Limerick via Limerick Junction is to provide a "no-change" service using dedicated rolling stock. This would knock a decent chunk of the trip time and eliminate the inconvenience and discomfort of detraining and waiting outdoors in Limerick Junction. There are at present no plans to do this. All of the other actions which could reduce the travel time on the Cork-Limerick journey are either aspirational or stuck in planning. (I'm excluding the work which is being undertaken under the Cork Commuter Rail heading as this is unlikely to have any measurable impact on the Cork Limerick service in the foreseeable future).

In summary, the present poor service between Cork and Limerick is set to continue unchanged for at least another couple of years.

The lack of energy, urgency, enthusiasm and most of all the lack of action in respect of projects like these, despite the vapid grandstanding by Ryan and the various agencies involved is dreadfully disappointing, and completely undermines any attempt at modal shift.

cantalach

The train station in Moyross is another rail project that I don’t really get…

The big loop by rail from the proposed location to Colbert Station is ~6.5 km, and due to significant speed restrictions, the expected journey time is 9 minutes (assuming the proposed intermediate stop in Corbally doesn’t happen). But once you get to Colbert, you’re still another 6-7 mins walk from there to what most Limerick people would mean by “city centre”. And then there is the fact that the proposed station isn’t centrally located in Moyross but is at the northern extremity. Considering total door-to-door journey time, you would almost certainly be faster walking the 2.3 km from Watch House Cross to Brown Thomas than getting the train.

The 303 bus on the other hand leaves from Watch House Cross and drops you off outside Brown Thomas. Even without building any dedicated bus infrastructure, it does the journey in 13 mins off-peak and 19 mins peak (per Google Maps journey planner).

I know rail is sexier than bus but it has to make sense.